Part 1 Provisions relating to remuneration, programme funding, and other payments concerning office of Governor-General
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) Link to this
I am very happy to take a call on Part 1 of the Governor-General Bill. It was worked over by the Government Administration Committee, which I have the privilege of being on. The Committee stage is the relatively technical part of the debate on the Governor-General Bill so I thought I would talk about some of the significant changes that Part 1 makes.
The first significant change relates to the definition of “family” for the Governor-General. I think people would be surprised to learn that although the funding arrangements and so on for the Governor-General have always included the concept of covering certain things to do with the Governor-General’s family, whom the Governor-General’s family actually consists of has never been defined. This legislation now clarifies that matter and makes it very clear what the Governor-General’s family is. It defines a family as the partner or spouse, and children under 18 who are being provided with ongoing daily care, are being maintained as a member of the Governor-General’s family, and are not living with another person in a marriage, civil union, or de facto relationship. I think it is important that that definition is spelt out very clearly. When we are providing Government assistance to somebody who is not an office holder himself or herself but is a family member of an office holder, it is important that we are very clear about who may or may not be entitled to be supported in that regard.
Clause 5 deals with the salary of the Governor-General. There has been significant debate about this clause in particular. A lot of the debate in the media has been about whether the changes Parliament is making increase the remuneration of the Governor-General. Editorials in our local paper, the Dominion Post,have decried the supposed increase in the amount of money being given to the Governor-General. That is not the case. The nature of some of the changes could lead to confusion, though, so I think it is important that we take some time to go through those changes quite carefully.
Under clause 5 the salary rate of the Governor-General will be set by the Remuneration Authority. The same authority establishes the salary rates for members of Parliament and, I believe, for the judiciary and other important constitutional offices. It is independent. It is not motivated by politics; it is motivated by a whole range of factors. The public of New Zealand can be confident that by having an independent Remuneration Authority establishing what the Governor-General should be paid, there is some integrity in that process. The salaries that come out of it will not be a pittance that does not reflect the status of the office, but they will not be exorbitant, either. Clause 5 deals with that and establishes that the Remuneration Authority establishes ultimately what the Governor-General is paid.
Clause 7 is the provision about which there was considerable public debate through the news media. It is to do with the sum paid to the Governor-General after vacating the office of Governor-General. Once a person ceases to hold the office of Governor-General, other than if they die, they will be paid a lump sum equivalent to the gross salary for the last 6 months in office. That is a change from the arrangements under the previous Civil Lists Act 1979, which provided for the lump sum paid to be the equivalent of 3 months’ salary and, in addition, 3 months of the previous allowance arrangements. This bill makes significant changes to the allowance arrangement; the recommendation put to the select committee and enacted through this bill was that in order to maintain the quantum that the Governor-General is paid on leaving office at about the same level, rather than having 3 months of the new salary arrangements plus 3 months of the new allowance arrangements, it would be better simply to have 6 months of the new salary arrangements and not include the allowance arrangements in the payment to the Governor-General on leaving office.
The intention of this provision, rather than to increase the amount of the payment—or the golden handshake, as I think it was reported in some media outlets—was to maintain the status quo and ensure that when Governors-General leave office they end up in roughly the same position as they end up in now. The Cabinet secretary wrote to the Dominion Post to outline these changes, and because it is important that this is clearly spelt out I will quote directly: “To ensure that a future governor-general receives a payment on leaving office that compares broadly with that available under the current law …”. As the changes to the Governor-General’s allowance will lead to a smaller personal sum, the previous payment of 3 months’ salary and 3 months’ allowance would be more than under the new arrangement.
This bill overall—I probably should have said this at the beginning—removes the tax exemption from Governors-General, which is why such significant changes are being made to the way that they are paid and to the nature of their allowances. Previously, the Governor-General did not pay tax. That will not be the case any more. Governors-General will be taxed in just the same way as you, me, or any other New Zealander, which is in the great egalitarian New Zealand tradition. I think it is great to see our de facto head of State subject to the same taxation arrangements as the rest of the country.
We will not put GST on his fresh fruit and veges. That is a very good point from Mr Hayes, and I thank him for pointing it out for me. If the Governor-General chooses to lead a healthy lifestyle, he will not pay GST on his fresh fruit and veges under a Labour Government. Under a Labour Government he will not pay GST on his fresh fruit and veges. I thank Mr Hayes for pointing that out and highlighting that very, very good policy from the Labour Opposition.
Clauses 8 and 9 deal with the annuities paid to former Governors-General and their spouses. An annuity for Governors-General is payable 6 months after they have ceased being Governor-General. The reason it is 6 months after they have ceased being Governor-General is that for the first 6 months, they receive the payment on leaving office. The annuity basically kicks in after they would have used up that 6-month payment. A lot of New Zealanders would question having annuities and other allowances paid to people who no longer hold public office. There is scrutiny on the travel of former members of Parliament, on what former members of Parliament get, and so on. I put forward the pretty strong argument that a former Governor-General should receive an annuity. I would have thought that there is a pretty limited range of career opportunities within New Zealand for a former Governor-General, so I think it is only fair. They have taken probably 5 years—or 6 years, because their term is often extended for an extra year—out of their lives to serve this country. It has probably narrowed down the career options available to them when their term finishes. It is important that our former de facto heads of State, which is what Governors-General are, can live the rest of their lives in reasonable comfort and with dignity.
Clauses 8 and 9 deal with the annuities that can be paid to a former Governor-General. If a person dies after ceasing to hold office, his or her spouse or partner is entitled to an annuity at half the previous yearly rate until he or she dies. When former Governors-General pass away, their spouses will still be provided for. It will not be at the same rate; it is obviously at half the rate they would have received were the former Governor-General still alive.
An important point here is that if the Governor-General dies whilst still in office, which is a possibility, his or her spouse or partner is entitled on the date of death to an annuity at half the rate that would have been paid to the Governor-General had the Governor-General resigned. Unlike the annuity for the Governor-General, this one comes into effect straight away, because the spouse will not get the 6-month payment on leaving office that a Governor-General receives when he or she leaves office. This annuity kicks in straight away. That provision is important because it recognises the contribution of the spouse, which can be quite significant. Governors-General’s spouses do a lot of ceremonial work. They represent New Zealand. It is a significant role in its own right. So allowing for an annuity to be paid to that person, should his or her partner die, is really important. It modernises, I guess, the legislation relating to annuities for former Governors-General.
Clauses 13 and 14, which I may have an opportunity to talk about a little further down the track, deal with the funding for the Governor-General’s programme.
JACQUI DEAN (National—Waitaki) Link to this
The Governor-General Bill seeks to repeal and replace Part 1 of the Civil List Act 1979 with some updated financial arrangements that are concerned with the Governor-General’s salary and things like allowances for the travel expenses of the Governor-General and the Administrator of the Government. This bill would make the financial arrangements for the support of the Governor-General and his or her programme more transparent and simpler to administer. It also intends to remove the tax exemption from the Governor-General’s salary. This will not affect the constitutional position of the Governor-General.
In speaking to Part 1 during this Committee stage, I note that clause 5 provides for the payment to the Governor-General of a salary at a rate determined by the Remuneration Authority, with the proviso that the salary of the Governor-General must not be reduced during the Governor-General’s term of office. The bill also provides, in clause 6, for the payment to the Governor-General of an allowance for official expenses, which is to be set at a fixed rate by Order in Council. Those provisions are contained in Part 1, clauses 5 and 6. Noting that the rate for the allowance may be changed up or down, and noting the important position that the Governor-General has in New Zealand society, we consider that the allowance for official expenses is well covered in this bill. Clause 7 in Part 1 provides for the payment of a gross lump sum to a person who ceases to hold office as Governor-General, which is to be equivalent to the gross salary payable for the last 6 months that the person held office. That is provided for in clause 7.
Clause 8 in Part 1 provides for the payment of an annuity to a person who has held office as Governor-General at a yearly rate determined by the Remuneration Authority. The annuity is payable from the date 6 months after the person ceased to hold office. Clause 9 is interesting and was a not contentious but well-discussed part of the bill. It provides that if a Governor-General dies after ceasing to hold office, the surviving spouse or partner of that person must be paid an annuity at half the yearly rate at which an annuity would have been payable to the person under clause 8—the clause I have just described—if that person had not died. However, if a Governor-General dies while holding office, the bill provides that the surviving spouse or partner of the Governor-General must be paid an annuity at half the yearly rate at which the annuity would have been payable to that person under clause 8 had he or she resigned from the office on the date of death.
Moving on to clause 10 in Part 1, the bill provides for compensation to be paid where the superannuation rights of a person appointed to the office of Governor-General, or the superannuation rights of a spouse or partner of that person, are adversely affected because of the appointment, and where an appointee has entered into a written agreement with the Minister of Finance before taking up the office of Governor-General for such compensation to be paid.
I just note at this point that although Part 1 might seem to be slightly dry in nature, it is very important—
—it is important to the members of the Government Administration Committee, I can assure those members—because it underlines the purpose of this bill, which is to bring up to date conditions relating to the remuneration of the Governor-General and other conditions of that office. With those few words of contribution, I commend this stage of the bill to the Committee.
PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) Link to this
I will quote from the Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Palmer, the president of the Law Commission. When he presented a report on this bill, the Governor-General Bill, in December 2009, he stated: “We need a new statute to reflect the nature of the modern office of Governor-General. The office is vitally important to New Zealand’s Constitution. The Office of Governor-General is an important symbol of our nation. The Governor-General stands above political differences to provide a sense of national unity and identity.” That is why members on this side of the Chamber support this bill. It is a modest but useful step in the direction of modernising the arrangements of the office of Governor-General.
There are many useful elements in this bill that we have begun to discuss. But I have to say that I am struck by the bankrupt and contradictory impulses that are driving the National Government’s approach to issues of national identity and the office of Governor-General. I say that because this is the Government, led by John Key, that is bringing back knights and dames and bringing back Queen’s Counsel. Any moment I expect that we will have medieval jousting—
Hone Harawira—on the forecourt of Parliament. I expect we will see Mr Hone Harawira being transported into this House in a gold-encrusted carriage, pulled by white horses. Nothing would surprise me, given this Government’s fondness for medieval regalia.
On the one hand, a bill has come to the House from the Government Administration Committee to modernise the office of Governor-General and to sort out the arrangements and make them more transparent, to provide clarity around the payment of annuities, and so on. On the other hand, the Government is festooning our national Parliament with medieval regalia that I thought we had got rid of 200 years ago. At the same time, we find that the Prime Minister is besotted with the trappings of our colonial heritage but, simultaneously, he goes on to a morning television talk show and completely fails to defend the person and the office of Governor-General against some of the most racist and offensive attacks on the office of Governor-General that I have seen in my lifetime. I think the inability of the Prime Minister to open his mouth and defend Anand Satyanand, our Governor-General, against a gutter attack shows that the motives behind the clauses that we are debating in Part 1 are an inch deep.
Government members are quite happy to warble on about annuities and the arrangements for sums payable after the Governor-General leaves office, but they cannot find it in themselves to speak from the heart and defend our Governor-General when he is the subject of the most baseless and scurrilous attack by Paul Henry on Breakfast, who questioned whether our current Governor-General looks and sounds like a New Zealander.
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) Link to this
I have motioned to the member to stay within the scope of Part 1. Yes, we have a tradition that members can use examples, but the member needs to relate his examples to some clause or some aspect of the bill. This is not a general debate.
I was simply trying to make the point that Part 1 sets out some modest but useful provisions that will modernise the arrangements around the office of Governor-General, and that bring some clarity and transparency to the payment of salary and to the definition of family. It is important that we do have clarity and transparency about those arrangements.
It is appropriate that the Remuneration Authority is tasked with setting the level of remuneration for the Governor-General. It is important that there is clarity and transparency, and one of the reasons is that the Governor-General, because of the office that he or she holds, is unable to defend himself or herself. We do not want the individual who is holding office engaging in political debate.
JOHN HAYES (National—Wairarapa) Link to this
I would like to speak on Part 1 of the Governor-General Bill, which is before the Committee this afternoon, and draw particular attention to clause 3, which states that “the Bill binds the Crown.” When one reads through the bill, at various parts in clause 4, “Interpretation”, in clause 5, “Salary of Governor-General”, and in clause 6, “Allowance of Governor-General”, one sees a very clear linkage between the role of the Prime Minister and the role of the Governor-General in setting terms and conditions. That is why I think this Committee should feel very concerned about the possibility of Mr Goff ever getting near the Prime Minister role. Mr Goff waited for 2 hours after the comments that the previous speaker, Phil Twyford, referred to were made, and then he said, in the context of the Act binding the Crown and as is set out in Part 1, that it was Paul Henry being Paul Henry. He was not being asked—
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) Link to this
I have asked members to debate Part 1. We can use examples, but this is not a general debate. I ask members to confine their remarks to Part 1 of the bill.
I thought that I was confining my comments to Part 1. It is important, because clause 6 states: “The Governor-General must be paid an allowance, at a rate fixed from time to time by Order in Council, for official expenses.” That involves a very close relationship between the Prime Minister and the Governor-General.
I think that our Governor-General is doing a really good job, but at the moment the office of Governor-General is handicapped because many of the allowances paid to him are consumed in doing his job. Clause 6 is really important because we are going to split that arrangement out, so that the Governor-General is paid a clearly defined amount to cover many of the costs of his office.
I also think it is very important, as one of the earlier speakers said, to draw attention to the fact that although the Governor-General is getting an annuity for a period of 6 months, under Part 1, once he has resigned, the fact is that under the present arrangement no tax is paid by the Governor-General. The purpose of this part of the bill, which was considered by the Government Administration Committee, was simply to make an adjustment allowing for the fact that in future the Governor-General will have to pay tax on the amount of allowance that he receives as an annuity at the point of his departure from office. It is a bit rough and ready, but it was a way of trying to accommodate the difference between a tax-free salary and a tax-paid salary. If a Government were ever to come into this Parliament and wanted to put up the top rate to 47.5 percent and impose that as a new upper tax rate, that would roughly equate to 3 months of the Governor-General’s 6-month annuity.
This is a very good adjustment to the Governor-General’s terms and conditions. With those words, together with the fact that this legislation was unanimously agreed to by the select committee, there is no real need for me to add further to the comments. I support the bill accordingly.
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) Link to this
I am taking a call following the previous speaker, John Hayes, who, wearing his dapper little bow tie, is obviously auditioning for a future role as Governor-General. I do not know whether it will do the trick!
There is a need to tidy up the rules relating to the remuneration allowances of the Governor-General. I will raise two examples that show the need for the changes outlined in Part 1. The first relates to the fact that the rules are so old—and someone might have already mentioned that earlier, while I was out of the Chamber—they currently entitle the Governor-General, upon appointment, to a sailing trip from old Blighty. The Governor-General currently is entitled to a sailing trip between the United Kingdom and New Zealand. I am not sure whether it is one trip a year, but anyway it is ridiculous. That entitlement is well outmoded, and we no longer have any need for that allowance that still sits within the existing provisions.
The other provision goes the other way. It concerns a Governor-General who, by Paul Henry’s rating, would have been a real New Zealander. A previous Governor-General used to run a car importing business, and relied upon his—and it was a male Governor-General—exemption from income tax and import duty. He repeatedly imported a large number of vehicles from overseas and resold them in New Zealand. This was some time ago when New Zealand imposed very high tariffs on imported vehicles, particularly high-end English Jaguars and suchlike, which he was importing from the United Kingdom. He supplemented his stipend by importing vehicles and repeatedly flogging them off in New Zealand. He had a car sales business on the side, which was tax-free because of his status as Governor-General. Clearly, that was not a very good way to run the affairs of the Governor-General. We need to stop that sort of thing happening again in the future, by making it clear that the salary and allowances paid to the Governor-General are, in appropriate circumstances—the salary at least—taxable. The sort of thing we have seen in the past should not happen again.
The office of Governor-General is a high office. It is very important that we have proper rules in relation to the operation of the office of Governor-General. The Governor-General’s office sits as a very important part of our constitutional affairs. The Governor-General is the representative of Her Majesty the Queen of New Zealand, who is the titular head of New Zealand. The Governor-General is bound by various traditions, protocols, and conventions as to how he or she acts. The Governor-General acts generally on the recommendation of the Government of the day through the Executive Council, which effectively makes recommendations to the Governor-General about what regulations should be passed. The Governor-General also signs into law, by giving the Royal assent on behalf of the Queen, legislation that is passed by this House.
The important constitutional role that the Governor-General fulfils ought to be properly administered and properly paid. The rules about payment ought to be clear. That is what Part 1 makes clear, by setting out the salary that is properly payable. It also sets out the annuity that is payable to former Governors-General upon their retirement—how that annuity carries on to the surviving spouse of a former Governor-General, and when those sorts of things arise and when they stop—and the other sorts of allowances that are payable to Governors-General.
I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Heatley, if he can recall the instance that I spoke of, in relation to a previous Governor-General. The name, if he wants a hint, began with B. The Governor-General whose name began with B had an import business on the side. He imported large numbers of cars and sold them at a profit. He may have been using that business in part to fund the office of Governor-General, but he may also have been personally profiting. I am not sure where the truth lies! None the less—
He may well have been a lawyer. In fact, he may bear the same name as another lawyer who got into trouble for other judicial matters.
NIKKI KAYE (National—Auckland Central) Link to this
I am pleased to speak on the Governor-General Bill. Firstly, I acknowledge the previous speaker, David Parker. I reiterate that it is very important, given that this is such a high office, that we have transparency in this area. We are here debating this bill because the Law Commission made a number of recommendations in the area of transparency, which the Government Administration Committee in this bill picked up. One of the recommendations of the Law Commission was that the provisions in the Civil List Act were very old-fashioned and unnecessarily complicated, and no longer supported what we needed, which is a much more modern office of Governor-General.
There are two main provisions that I want to touch on in Part 1 that really focus on greater transparency. The current situation is that the Governor-General’s personal allowance pays for a variety of official functions, which we believe would be more appropriately provided within a separate appropriation. Some of the political discussion brought up by previous speakers really emphasised the need to have a separate appropriation. The office is one of the highest in the land and it is really important that we can see what is being spent by the Governor-General and what may be being spent in an official capacity in terms of events. A key part of Part 1 is about separating out that appropriation.
The second provision, which has been mentioned by a number of speakers, is about the fact that at present the Governor-General’s salary is exempt from income tax. We know that the Queen started paying income tax in 1993. We also know that the Australian Governor-General and state governors have paid income tax since 2001. That was not something the last Labour Government chose to pick up, but I am pleased that we will be putting that through under this Government to ensure—I reiterate Chris Hipkins’ comments—a much more egalitarian situation. I think those are the two key provisions in the bill. There are obviously also other provisions around annuities.
I will make a couple of final comments. I believe the current Governor-General is doing a fantastic job. This bill will not be relevant to this Governor-General, because it will kick in in August 2011. I think our country can be proud that we have had a really diverse range of people who have held that office. They have come from a variety of professions. I think it is really important that through this legislation we are updating the arrangements and putting in a much more modern regime, a more transparent regime. That, ultimately, will ensure that the person who holds the office of Governor-General will be able to do so in a way that is both transparent and egalitarian, for the benefit of the people of New Zealand.
KEITH LOCKE (Green) Link to this
I rise to follow on from the speech made by Nikki Kaye. She talked about the issue of transparency. The Greens are very much in favour of transparency, and it is good that the Governor-General Bill is introducing somewhat more transparency in terms of the payments of the Governor-General, annuities, and the rest of it. It is also good that we are laying out how the Remuneration Authority, an independent body, will determine such matters in the future.
I think that if we want to have proper transparency, that transparency has to go across the board. I say in response to the suggestion in the debate earlier today that there be more transparency in the actual nomination for Governor-General to go to the Queen—or King, perhaps, at a later point—that that process is not as transparent as I think Nikki Kaye would like. When a nomination goes off to the Queen, how are we to know what factors are being taken into consideration? It is all done in the deep, dark corners of the ninth floor of the Beehive, I think.
Certainly, the Green Party has never been consulted on who should be the Governor-General, and because that lacks transparency and proper accountability, there is good reason to think that if we are to make transparency in appointment parallel with transparency in remuneration—which this bill is going down the road to improving—then we have to have some process whereby it is all out in the open, names come before Parliament, and Parliament determines, in one way or another, which candidate nomination it comes up with is to go to the Queen, in a democratic and much more transparent process. My Supplementary Order Paper, which unfortunately was not able to come before the Committee of the whole House, would have addressed that.
The other point in relation to annuities is that clause 8 talks about annuities being paid at a yearly rate determined from time to time by the Remuneration Authority for each complete year, not exceeding 5 years. So the annuities very definitely relate to the length of service of the Governor-General. It would be much more transparent if we had in legislation a fixed term for the Governor-General so that the Remuneration Authority did not have to guess how long each newly appointed Governor-General might serve, and what the Government might determine their length of service to be. If there was a fixed term, the Remuneration Authority would know exactly where it stood in determining those annuities. I think that it is a pity that the second part of my Supplementary Order Paper is not coming before the Committee. It would have straightened out that and made it much easier for the Remuneration Authority.
It may be that the Remuneration Authority decides to reduce some of the annuities because we are in rather tight times. It may well decide that 6 months’ redundancy pay amounting to $96,000 and a $62,000 annuity for Governors-General for the rest of their lives is a little bit excessive. It may not, of course, but I think we should consider that matter. We do not want to spend huge amounts on Governors-General. We do not want them to feel too much privilege; we want Governors-General to be ordinary people who can reflect society.
It is great that we have such a person in Anand Satyanand. As Governor-General he reflects many New Zealanders. I think it is important that Governors-General do not receive too great a remuneration and annuity, because they may think the job puts them up with the elite in our society and not in a job where they deal with ordinary people in their daily lives. The fact that Governors-General go around the country opening bowling clubs, and all the rest of it, brings them into contact with ordinary people, and I think that their remuneration and annuities should be commensurate with those tasks. The tasks are not heavily political on a day-to-day basis, although Governors-General play a very important constitutional role, particularly in our MMP system.
Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) Link to this
I am pleased to take a call on Part 1 of the Governor-General Bill. I agree with a previous speaker, Nikki Kaye, that the present Governor-General is doing a great job. That is the feeling of people around the country. I am really pleased to share a nationality with the Governor-General and that is the nationality of being a New Zealander, which is great. The provisions of Part 1 require an understanding of the role of Governor-General and they make sense when one understands what the role entails. The Governor-General has to be a person with extensive experience in diverse fields in New Zealand. Certainly, all modern Governors-General have had that background, and the role is that of no ordinary person. More often than not the person is a professional and has tremendous experience. It would be a person of great mana and understanding. It would be someone who commands great respect throughout New Zealand.
When we understand the role from that perspective, we understand the provisions of Part 1. Governors-General have to forgo their former careers when they are appointed to the position, so there is no chance at all of returning to those careers. The present Governor-General had been a judge and an Ombudsman. There is no chance of his ever going back to those types of paid, public positions. Undertaking any paid office generally of that type in New Zealand would not be possible. When we look at the provisions of Part 1 from that perspective, they make a lot of sense. The other aspect is that Governors-General often cannot defend themselves against criticism. Speaking as a former Race Relations Conciliator, I certainly would have immediately defended the Governor-General and criticised Paul Henry’s criticism of him. I would not have waited until later on.
Perhaps the one aspect of clause 4 that I find particularly satisfying is the definition of “family member”. It really shows an appreciation of the modern family. It shows that Governors-General could take different family forms, and there should be no discrimination on the basis of the type of family. Therefore, the definition of “family member” modernises the term and brings it into currency. That is a good thing for families in New Zealand. It reflects the reality of family life and the various forms of families that exist in New Zealand.
Clause 5 talks about a paid salary for the Governor-General. That is the first use of the term “salary” in respect of a Governor-General. It is a payment for a particular job. The salary will be determined by the Remuneration Authority—our highest authority. A group of independent people will think about this role, size it, and determine the salary that fits the role. That will modernise the role in terms of how we treat it by way of remuneration. It is good that the salary cannot be reduced during the term of a Governor-General, and that protection is certainly required. Clause 6 separates the allowances from being part of the current remuneration package, if you like, of the Governor-General. The allowance part of it is not taxable; the allowance is simply what it costs the Governor-General to satisfy the role that is undertaken. Clause 8 talks about an annuity for former Governors-General.
Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) Link to this
Kia ora anō tātou. It is a pleasure to stand and comment on the Governor-General Bill, and to follow my colleague, who has developed a sudden interest in ensuring that equity is applied to this role. We heard a very impoverished view from a colleague in the Green Party, in contrast to an almost groupie-like speech from the member for Auckland Central, with her sudden-found enthusiasm for the Governor-General and the trappings associated with that role. The level of enthusiasm heard from her was inversely related to the subject matter.
However, I direct our attention to clause 5, “Salary of Governor-General”. I hope we will hear a response, or perhaps witness a contribution—lucid, coherent, and inversely related to the man’s name—from Minister Heatley, the Minister in the chair, about what exactly the Remuneration Authority will do, and what criteria it will follow, in composing a suitable salary package for that august individual, the Governor-General. The Remuneration Authority will quantify the salary and allowance. I will not cover the annuity at this stage. That can come later because this will be a long night, and this topic is very, very large, deep, and prodigious, and it goes to the heart of our democracy. It will require, I should imagine, at least a 4 or 5-hour series of contributions, given that our colleague, the tangata whenua from Wainuiōmata, will be back shortly—he may be away, but I am sure he will be back—to continue our contributions.
One has to think what this person—if I can use the abbreviated term “GG”—has to put up with in order to qualify for a very handsome salary. Others have spoken about the danger faced when this individual goes overseas, and whether the Remuneration Authority will take account of the epithets, slurs, and very, very cruel remarks made not necessarily about the conduct that he might be showing in that formal role but his inherited, ancestral qualities—ethnicity, and other sorts of things. I think the Remuneration Authority will have to take account of the sorts of insults and deprecating behaviour that he will receive from whoever may be the Prime Minister at that point of time. The Remuneration Authority has every entitlement to take account of the kinds of hazards that this individual will have to tolerate.
From time to time this individual—I will not say “poor” individual, but I will say “overworked” individual—will have to turn up at Waitangi. I know, having heard from the august member from Ikaroa-Rāwhiti, that members of the executive can be attacked at Waitangi. [Interruption] The man says that his finger was bitten and he pointed perilously towards Mr Harawira—but that is another debate. The Remuneration Authority will have to take account of the fact that when the Governor-General ventures beyond the harbour bridge, and closes his or her eyes in walking through the wreckage of what is currently known as the super-city—which is soon to be fixed up by us, and which will receive the Royal assent of the Governor-General in good time—and goes to Te Tiriti o Waitangi grounds, that man or woman will be confronted by elements associated with the Māori Party, which will deserve a definite, additional pay scale. Not only will the Governor-General have to deal with political perils as he or she moves closer and closer to the ever-diminishing number of Mr Harawira’s supporters—
—his nephews; we should not talk about whānau—and in moving north have to confront them, but the Remuneration Authority must take account of how the Governor-General performs the royal duties at the Te Tiriti o Waitangi grounds and upholds the honour of the Crown, and does that in the face of slur, attack, and menace by the Prime Minister of the country, as we have witnessed recently. In addition, it is important that we give some thought to this person, and his or her partner, on remuneration matters.
CLARE CURRAN (Labour—Dunedin South) Link to this
Labour supports the Governor-General Bill because, as previous Labour speakers have pointed out, the previous Labour Government asked the Law Commission to look into the funding arrangements for the Governor-General, which is the substance of Part 1 of this bill. We are pleased that the commission’s findings are being implemented in full.
Labour welcomes discussion about New Zealand’s constitutional arrangements, and a bill about one of the most important figures in our constitutional arrangements is a good opportunity for that. It is good to start with a focus on streamlining the financial arrangements of the Governor-General. Labour members are always keen to hear people’s views about the future of our constitution, a keenness we have shown through voting for Keith Locke’s Head of State Referenda Bill at first reading to go to a select committee, and by moves to encourage debate about the New Zealand flag.
I do not think that anyone is in any doubt about my support for New Zealand having its own head of State. I would also like to put on record my great deal of sympathy for Supplementary Order Paper 173, put forward by my colleague in the Greens Keith Locke. We absolutely need to have a public debate about the length of the Governor-General’s term, and also about the role of the Governor-General and how that might change, but that debate must occur in select committee and in other public forums, where the public has adequate opportunities to put forward its views.
We have also shown our support for constitutional discussion—apart from our support for Part 1 of the bill about funding arrangements for the Governor-General—through our active participation in a recent constitutional conference in Wellington, where several present and past Labour members of Parliament talked freely about the importance and inevitability of constitutional change in New Zealand. Interestingly, the Government’s participation in that conference was fairly minimal, with only Simon Power participating. He restricted his views to MMP reform and did not address the wider constitutional issues. Labour, however, was ably represented by Charles Chauvel. We also heard from the former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Cullen, who laid out a clear road map for New Zealand to become a republic. He talked about the need—
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) Link to this
We are confining this debate to Part 1. If the member is giving examples, she must relate them to some portion of Part 1. This is not a general debate.
He talked about the need to at least make a start on the law changes required so that we can get ready to elect our own head of State. Although this bill introduces the concept of constitutional change, it does not exactly light one’s fire. It does deal with some important issues, in particular egalitarianism and equality—both of opportunity and of responsibility—which have always been core Labour values, along with fairness. Certainly, the removal of the Governor-General’s tax exemption, which will be discussed in relation to the next part of the bill, is an important symbol of the fundamental equality that New Zealand is built on and that we hold dear.
The particular clauses that we are addressing in Part 1 of the bill are clause 4, which clarifies the definition of “family member”; clause 5, which sets out salaries; and clauses 8 and 9, which talk about the annuity paid to the Governor-General after leaving office. There is also an important clause, I think, recognising the Governor-General’s spouse if the Governor-General dies after ceasing to hold office. That is a very important clause, because it values the role that the spouse of the Governor-General plays.
We note that this bill promotes transparency. It will also modernise the old-fashioned language found in the parts of the Civil List Act relating to the Governor-General, which will also be considered in Part 2. Of course, we welcome discussion about any legislation based on transparency, modernity, openness, and the upholding of ethical standards and principles as the cornerstones of democracy, because that is the kind of party that Labour is, in contrast to the Government, which seems to have as its modus operandi a habit of saying one thing to one audience and something completely different to another. I will refer to a comment made by my colleague Trevor Mallard during his speech on the second reading of this bill.
Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) Link to this
There are a few more points that I want to make on Part 1 of the Governor-General Bill, and I express my delight at some of the provisions in it. Clause 7 needs some explanation and the Minister in the chair, Phil Heatley, might like take a call to explain it in a little more detail. There has been reference in the Dominion Post to the provision paying a lump sum to the Governor-General after leaving office . At the current time, the amount paid on leaving office is equivalent to 3 months’ salary. This legislation extends that amount to 6 months’ salary to make it equivalent to the original amount, allowing for the introduction of taxation on the Governor-General’s salary. There has been some cynical reference in the Dominion Post to that increase, because the increase from 3 months’ salary to 6 months’ salary equates to a taxation rate of 50 percent. Perhaps the Minister in the chair might like to explain that a little.
Clause 9 talks about an annuity for a spouse or partner of former Governors-Generalwhen they leave office. I think that is a particularly important provision. God forbid that a Governor-General dies in office, but if that happens, it is good to know that clause 9 makes provision for an annuity that would take care of the spouse. A spouse of a Governor-General, having a position of that type, with much exposure and very little else to return to, requires that type of protection as well.
The annuity paid to the Governor-General is also well reflected here and the provisions are appropriate. People might want to consider why it is important to have clause 10, which addresses the fact that a Governor-General may lose superannuation rights accrued elsewhere. Perhaps the Minister in the chair might like to explain that provision a little. I understand that if a Governor-General has superannuation rights prior to becoming the Governor-General, those rights may be affected in the future as a result of taking up the position. So there should be no loss in those rights, and it requires some special provision. Clause 10 makes sure that there is no financial loss to the Governor-General in respect of superannuation rights gathered somewhere else through extensive service in a different capacity. So clause 10 takes care of that.
Clause 12 makes permanent appropriations for salary, allowances, and annuities. It regularises this and brings in the final element that is important to have in place with a stand-alone bill of this nature with all of those provisions.
The role of a Governor-General, such as it is, requires a special person with an extensive background, who will not have the ability to return to normal life, if you like. It is very satisfying to see that the provisions of Part 1 are so clearly stated and take care of a number of the demands of the role. Part 1 addresses what the Governor-General forfeits in taking up the role, which, in this case, he will not be able to return to. Therefore, the provisions in Part 1 are appropriate for that particular purpose.
Just to underscore again, the one satisfying part for me is the way in which the Governor-General’s family is defined in modern terms. The provisions around the spouse are also appropriate. With those words, I conclude my comments on Part 1.
KANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHIKEITH LOCKE (Green) Link to this
I was very interested in Clare Curran’s excellent speech. She talked about our egalitarianism, and I think we should always bear in mind that our nation is built on a feeling that we are all the same in terms of rights and in terms of status, and that no one person is superior to another. It goes back to our early pioneer history, the whole bicultural nature of our nation, and that intersection of destinies. It goes through the great reforms of the 1930s under the first Labour Government, etc. I think that is very much part of our history.
In some ways this bill is in that tradition of egalitarianism, overcoming the history of the monarchy—and its expression through the Governor-General of New Zealand—as being somehow superior, richer, and not subject to taxation, etc. This bill is making a very good move to reflect that egalitarianism.
One particular half-sentence in this bill grates a bit against that egalitarian tradition, and that is in clause 11, “Payments in respect of other benefits and privileges”. Clause 11(1) states: “The terms of the appointment of a person as Governor-General may include an agreement for that person and his or her spouse or partner to be provided with specified benefits or privileges by way of payments in respect of domestic travel and the use of chauffeured cars when he or she no longer holds office as Governor-General.”
I think the first part of that subclause is OK—it talks about agreement on benefits appropriate to the situation—but not the last bit about the use of chauffeured cars when he or she no longer holds office as Governor-General. Firstly, why do we have to have that level of specificity in legislation; and, secondly, is that not grating against the egalitarian tradition? I sat next to Sir Paul Reeves on the plane coming from Auckland to Wellington this morning. He is a very humble chap. I cannot speak for him, but I am sure that several former Governors-General would not say that they have to have written in legislation the use of chauffeured cars when they want them for the rest of their lives.
Look at the era we are in now. We are in an era where we have a Green mayor of Wellington who rides a bicycle. She is setting the standard, and I am sure that when she retires after several terms as mayor of Wellington she will not demand the right to have a chauffeur-driven car in Wellington. Perhaps she will demand the right to have her bicycle serviced periodically, or something like that.
So why should the provision about chauffeured cars be written into the legislation? I have not actually written out an amendment—I should have done that—but I think the Committee should remove this particular provision. I cannot speak for Anand Satyanand, but he seems to be a pretty humble chap, as well. [Interruption] My good colleague has indicated that he is a fellow New Zealander along with Sir Anand, so he would know a lot about these things.
That is right. I thought I would just bring up that point, because the whole history of the monarchy, if we go way back through the centuries, which we are starting to get beyond—and there have been speeches on that—is a history of privilege. The monarch is up there, above us, and in fact the more wealth and privilege the monarch has, the more he or she deemed to qualify to be a monarch, whereas we live in the very opposite form of society—an egalitarian society.
Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) Link to this
I rise to speak on the enormously important Part 1 of the Governor-General Bill. I note—and I would like to hear from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Defence—that the bill’s definition of “family member” includes a child who is under 18 years of age. I would like it noted that I have yet to discover a member of the Māori community who has a child over 18 who is independent and no longer in need of either patronage or financial succour from their parents. I must say, before I continue in a more serious vein, that I think it is very bad form that Mr Bakshi stood without contributing to this debate.
I was just noting that I am looking for a comprehensive level of participation from the other side of the Chamber in this matter.
I want to move our attention towards an annuity for former Governors-General. I will recount some of these former Governors-General. I recall Sir Keith Holyoake arriving—I think the year was 1978 or 1979; my whanaunga Hone Harawira will attest to that—at the Waitangi Marae waiting to be welcomed, and the Ngāpuhi Governor-General Dun Mīhaka delivering a royal salute.
I am talking about former Governors-General, and whether the level of the annuity is appropriate for the travails and the hazards that these men and women during their time had to tolerate. However, I will move on from “Kiwi Keith”.
I am also following up because the name Sir Paul Reeves was mentioned. He is a former Governor-General, a man whom I, Parekura Horomia, and a host of others regard as having great mana, because before he became the Governor-General he was our bishop. That role gave him a suitable level of preparation, which is why both the allowances and the annuities need to be appropriate to the breadth and the difficulty of the role that that man and these people have had to endure. There was lots of very strong Treaty-based preparation for that particular individual.
The name of an additional former Governor-General was alluded to but not enunciated in relation to certain commercial activities. I do not think that that person needs an annuity. I am not entirely sure whether his family still are the beneficiaries of the Civil List entitlements.
We have had several fine female Governors-General, and Parekura Horomia and I had occasion to meet one of them recently while she was back from South-east Asia. Whatever has been allocated to that particular individual, she has earned it. We need to pay a great deal of attention to that particular portion of the bill, because that person has gone on to represent our nation fantastically in a host of different venues and positions.
I think I should draw our attention to clause 10, whose heading contains the words “adversely affected superannuation rights”. That expression has enormous resonance; in fact, it animates all over New Zealand. I do not think that anyone of any seriousness would actually decry or want to reduce what the Governor-General may or may not be entitled to enjoy through a superannuation regime. If only such entitlements, charity, or foresight were spread around in general public policy.
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) Link to this
It is a pleasure to take my first call on this Governor-General Bill—
—first call, that is right—which is a very important bill, as my colleague Shane Jones just stated.
We are talking about people who in our system play both a very important ceremonial role—and I think most of us are very aware of the ceremonial role of the Governor-General—but also, as we know, a constitutional role that, although controversial for many in this Committee, is no doubt important.
When I look at Part 1, it says to me that democracy is not cheap. I think that when we look at this bill and work our way through the clauses in it, we see that there is a range of costs associated with being Governor-General, and that is as it should be. If we are going to have somebody in our society who is the head of state, and they have, as I said, a ceremonial role that takes them all over New Zealand and all over the world representing New Zealand and New Zealanders, as well as undertaking their constitutional role, then it is very important that we are able to resource that role well.
One of the criticisms levelled at republicanism is all of the cost associated with moving to a republic, but I think that this bill actually shows us that there is plenty of cost involved in being the Governor-General. When we look, for instance, at clauses 6, 7, and 8 we begin to see what the allowance of the Governor-General is. As I said, the allowance that somebody should be paid to undertake this role is quite reasonable, but it is expensive.
With regard to the annuity for former Governors-General, which I think is something that Mr Jones mentioned just before, it is sometimes hard for people to see why somebody who is a former Governor-General—who has undertaken the role but has now moved to another role in life—is still being paid. But the annuity is in recognition of the status of the role. I certainly respect what Keith Locke had to say in his intervention about whether references in clause 11 to chauffeur-driven cars are appropriate in an egalitarian New Zealand. I think that sometimes the phrase “chauffeur-driven car”—with all due respect to Ministerial Services and VIP drivers—makes it a little bit bigger than it really is. It is in fact a service that is given to Ministers. In this case I respect the fact that former Governors-General will have the continuing respect of New Zealand society by having that particular travel service provided to them.
It is true that this bill shows us that it is not cheap for us to retain the form of democracy that we have. We need to openly acknowledge that fact here in the Committee, and say that this bill, and Part 1 of this bill in particular, is about recognising those costs and putting them in an orderly way. From that point of view, I am certainly a strong supporter of the idea of the Governor-General, after this bill passes, paying some form of taxation. If it is good enough for the Queen, then it is good enough for the Governor-General. If it is good enough for Dr Prasad, then it is good enough for the Governor-General. If it is good enough for me, then it is good enough for the Governor-General. I am not sure about whether some of National’s mates are paying tax. But if it is good enough for the Governor-General to pay tax, then I hope that National members will be looking around and perhaps talking to some of their wealthy benefactors, and making sure that they take the opportunity to pay their tax, as well.
The role of the Governor-General is protected in this bill. I will refer specifically to some clauses that I do not think have had much discussion today, in relation to the Governor-General’s programme under clauses 13 and 14. In particular, I refer to the notion that the Governor-General is now essentially being de-linked from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. Certainly up to this time the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has had a key role in overseeing the Governor-General’s office. I guess that that came about as a result of people trying to find a place to locate the Governor-General, given that he or she stands a little outside the normal departmental framework.
It is now clear from the bill that the Governor-General’s programme is being de-linked from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. I think that is something a Minister would want to take a call on, in order to be absolutely clear for us on what now will occur when the Governor-General’s programme is separated out. That will put a great deal more responsibility on to the Governor-General’s staff, and on to the offices that support the Governor-General, to ensure that they are in fact continuing to operate in line with all of the things that we would expect from a public office. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has been able to play the role of linking people with the service of the Government; I think it is important that that can continue in one form or another, so perhaps a Minister might like to tell us how that would occur.
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) Link to this
Continuing from my colleague, I note the deep interest that the senior Minister in charge of the Governor-General Bill is paying to this debate, and his reluctance so far to answer the specific questions that I have been listening to. I will add a series of questions. The first question relates to clause 11(2). I ask whether there is any similar arrangement for current Governors-General, or the current Governor-General—
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
—no, no, we can have only one at a time—at a specific point in time, and whether there is an obligation to set out in the financial statements of the Department of Internal Affairs the arrangements that have been made for a Governor-General while he or she is in office. I think that is an important issue, and I hope the officials are writing a note for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Heatley, in order for him to answer the question.
If we are to have transparency in the arrangements for former Governors-General, I ask whether we are to have transparency in the arrangements for the Governor-General at a specific time. My view is that until now, it has been pretty easy to work out the arrangements for a Governor-General, but this legislation appears to take away that area of transparency. It may be that, under clause 10, someone can get some compensation for the period that he or she is Governor-General. I am looking in particular at clause 10(2), which indicates that the Minister of Finance and a person who is to be appointed as Governor-General can enter into what is effectively a remuneration contract, especially the superannuation part of the remuneration arrangement, for the Governor-General. Do we call the person the Governor-General designate?
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
Except that person is not quite that, because if the deal is not made, then presumably the appointment would not be announced. But the proposed Governor-General and the Minister of Finance have to have a discussion. It is very clear in clause 11(2) that the result of that arrangement has to be made public. But under clause 10(2), I cannot see where there is an obligation to be transparent. Because people generally pick people who are nice people and whom they are close to, there is always some danger of there being a sweetheart deal in this sort of arrangement.
I think that the taxpayer would be well satisfied if there was transparency in this matter, and maybe even one of my colleagues is prepared to scribble words on a bit of paper that would make it clear that there is to be transparency. Even if the answer is a matter of a nod or a wink from the Minister in the chair, I ask whether the arrangements made under clause 10(2) of this legislation are to be made transparent. I am not getting any reaction at all from the Minister. I think it is an important question.
Until the current time, we have had transparency in the arrangements for Governors-General. Some of the arrangements that the Governor-General had in the past were a bit hidden away—the GST arrangements and, in the old days, the import duty arrangements—but I ask the Minister to react to this. Everyone agrees that this legislation is generally quite good, but I think this aspect is an issue. I am not asking the Minister to lose the Government’s position by taking a call on this; all I am asking him to do is to indicate whether it is the intention of the Government to be transparent about the special superannuation arrangements.
DAVID BENNETTA party vote was called for on the question,
That the question be now put.
Ayes 69
Noes 50
Motion agreed to.
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) Link to this
We have an amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 11(1), to omit the words “and the use of chauffeured cars”. The question is that that amendment be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Noes have it. [ Interruption] Let me make it very clear, because this has happened often in recent times. If a party wants a party vote, it must ask for a party vote. Just saying “Yea” or “Nay,” or “Yes” or “No”, does not mean that we will have a party vote. If members want a party vote, they must call for one.
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. On that ruling, my question is whether only a party that is opposed to the ruling that you have made can call for a party vote, or whether any party can call for a party vote.
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) Link to this
That is a good question. My understanding is that any member with an opposing view has the right to be able to call for a party vote.
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 11 be agreed to:
A party vote was called for on the question,
That the amendment be agreed to.
Ayes 9
Noes 111
- New Zealand National 58
- New Zealand Labour 41
- ACT New Zealand 5
- Māori Party 5
- Progressive 1
- United Future 1
Amendment not agreed to.
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) Link to this
I will start by focusing on clause 16, which covers the first of these arrangements. I turn to the question of conflicting claims that was the subject of discussion in the second reading. Clause 16(1)(b) makes it clear that there is an ability to have a proportion of an annuity payable to more than one surviving spouse or partner of a former Governor-General.
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
The member has raised another issue for me, which is the question of whether the arrangements in clause 10(2) could be in the form of an annuity that is not a lifetime annuity but an annuity that could be inheritable. I am obliged to Mr Hayes for his interjection because I had not contemplated the possibility of something that is inheritable, other than in the circumstances of a spouse or partner being amongst the arrangements that could be made here. One of the questions I would like to ask the Minister—because we know that on occasions, for example, a lump-sum arrangement can be made for superannuation at the time of the death in office of a Governor-General—is whether it is possible that if the arrangements that have been made under clause 10(2) are then disputed under clause 16, a lump sum could be debated by children.
I must say that I would be relatively surprised if that was the case, because I think that clause 9 refers to spouses or partners of late Governors-General. I do not think it refers to children. But I do not know whether under clause 10(2) the type of superannuation arrangement that could be entered into would involve a lump sum that could then be disputed. Clause 16 would not cut the mustard for a dispute, because this is only for clause 9 disputes. This is a dispute around the annuity payable to a former spouse or partner. But if clause 10(2) covered a lump-sum arrangement, it could well be a single Governor-General, or someone whose wife or spouse or husband—sorry, I am being politically correct here—predeceased them, then if there is a dispute amongst the children or the other people who will be inheriting the money, the question is whether there is any role for a clause that is similar to clause 16, as clause 16 deals only with claims arising under section 9 of the Act.
I wonder whether instead of “entitled to an annuity” as provided for in section 9 of the Act, it might be worth introducing an amendment that states “or for an annuity pursuant to clause 10(2) where a lump sum is involved.” I think Simon Power would agree with me that it would be a little ugly if the children of a former Governor-General appeared before the High Court to dispute the will of a Governor-General, especially the part of the will that covered a lump-sum arrangement, which I think we have now agreed could arise from clause 10(2).
The question to the Minister of Justice—and I know he is avidly following this bill—is whether clause 16, “Conflicting claims”, should include a reference to clause 10(2), as well as to section 9 of the Act. I can see some members at the back of the Chamber shaking their heads, but so far no Minister has been able to explain to me why an arrangement, as set out in clause 10(2), could not include a lump sum. If it did include a lump sum and there were conflicting claims as to who that lump sum should be paid to, there should be a mechanism for sorting it out. As the Minister has provided for, clauses 16(1) and (2) essentially apportion the annuity in the case of there being multiple wives or partners, and I think that is fair. Generally, in the way that these things work, I hope that clause 16(1) will not be brought into play. I think having the authority to make the decision is important.
The next question is who the authorised person is, under this sort of arrangement. It is not clear from clause 16 who the authorised person is. My view is that it should not be a public servant. The idea of a serving public servant making a decision about the appropriate payments to be made to the wives of a former Governor-General is not appropriate. They could be wives seriatim, or they could be wives at the same time. We have had a discussion about the possibility of whether John Key and his moving this bill is taking a liberal view and looking to the future when we could have a Mormon Governor-General or a Muslim Governor-General. Such Governors-General could have a proper polygamist arrangement, according to the laws of the countries they have visited, lived in, or been married in. Although polygamy is not recognised in New Zealand law, I think many of us will be aware, through our constituency cases, of that sort—
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
I do not know—in fact, Tim Groser could be the one. The member’s friend Tim Groser was the one who had multiple Muslim marriages, but I do not know whether they were serial or concurrent. According to the law of the country that he was living in at the time, they could have been concurrent. So we might have a good example here. Tim Groser has the voice of a Governor-General—of the sort that I can remember from when I was a kid. If Tim Groser on some occasion became Governor-General would this clause be the one to sort out the claims of the wives, including serial and concurrent? However, leaving that aside, because I understand that there has been a change of faith and a change of relationships in that case, I ask whether it is the intention of the Government that clause 16 be used for that sort of arrangement.
The other question, which I think is an important one that we need to work through, is who the authorised person is. It is an answer that either Mr Hayes or Mr—what is his name?
Hon Phil HeatleyHon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
No, he has been around a while; he is just slightly forgettable as to his name. If either of those members could advise who the authorised person is, that would be useful.
JOHN HAYES (National—Wairarapa) Link to this
That speech by Trevor Mallard on the Governor-General Bill was 20 minutes of absolute nonsense. I refer the member to Part 2, clause 16(2), which states that if more than one person wants to claim part of the annuity then the total annuity can only be the amount payable to one person—the carrot can be cut only once. So it does not matter whether a person has 10 wives and 15 children, the amount is going to be the equivalent of only one annuity, which will be paid to whoever is entitled to it, and that is not for us to judge. All of the last 20 minutes was a total waste of this Committee’s time and if the member had looked at one little subclause he would have discovered that that was exactly the case. The second point of Part 2 is that it provides for an appeal if there is a squabble amongst people who feel they have a claim against the annuity; the claim can be taken to the High Court. With those words, I fully support Part 2 and have nothing further to say on it. Thank you.
PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) Link to this
I cannot help feeling that this side of the House is doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
I am thrilled to hear some words emerge from the mouth of the Minister in the chair, and I invite the Minister to show us that there is more to him than fish and flogging off our public housing stock. I really would welcome some comment from the Minister, particularly on clauses 19, 20, 22, and 24 of Part 2. I think it would be great. I was hoping we would hear from the member for North Shore, who used to teach constitutional law, and I thought he would have a lot of good things to tell the House about Part 2.
No, but just like many of our Governors-General he has gone on to bigger and better things, and that is one of the points we have been covering in terms of the need for an annuity. One of my colleagues, Chris Hipkins, made the point earlier that it is necessary because being Governor-General is not exactly good for someone’s employment prospects. I question that. I look at people like Dame Silvia Cartwright, who has gone on to provide fantastic service on the tribunal in Cambodia, and also Sir Paul Reeves, who has provided distinguished service in Fiji and academic life in New Zealand in the years following his tenure as Governor-General.
Part 2 has some important clauses. Firstly, it amends the Civil List Act 1979—it repeals Part 1 of that Act, which provides for the funding of the Governor-General; and it allows the establishment of a stand-alone piece of legislation that reflects the importance of the office of Governor-General. I think the symbolism of that is very clear. Clauses 22 to 24 provide for the amendment of the Income Tax Act 2007 to remove the Governor-General’s tax-exempt status. But of course, as we know, it retains tax-exempt status for the allowance.
The significance of this group of clauses in Part 2 cannot be underestimated. The motivation behind these clauses is the very reason why Labour has called for the beginning of a conversation about the future of our constitutional arrangements. We believe that the very reasons we are taking away the Governor-General’s tax-exempt status and establishing these arrangements and stand-alone legislation are why it is time for our country to start having a conversation about our future constitutional status.
Many New Zealanders say they are perfectly happy with this Queen, that she has provided many years of wonderful service as our head of State, and that it would be impolite to begin a conversation about constitutional change while she is still on the throne. We take the view that our future constitutional status is too important to be left to a mad scramble on the death or abdication of the current Queen, and that we must begin now as a country to discuss not just these important practical details around annuities and so on, but also the nature of the office of our head of State, the way in which the head of State is selected, and whether the head of State should be a New Zealander and not a member of the British royal family.
That is why we support these provisions. We think they are important and necessary. The nature of the office of Governor-General demonstrates the fact that New Zealand is a constitutional monarchy. There is a very real and important symbolism in having these provisions, which provide the core of the second part of this bill in separate legislation. There is simply no longer any justification for the tax-exempt status of the Governor-General’s income.
KEITH LOCKE (Green) Link to this
I would like to follow up Trevor Mallard’s interesting speech on clause 16 in Part 2 in relation to conflicting claims—that is, envisaging a situation where there might be more than one person entitled to an annuity. As Trevor Mallard said, that reflects that we are in a modern society and it is a modern clause. Not only could there be two spouses in terms of one spouse dying and the Governor-General remarrying but also the provision could take account of divorce. If we look back into the history of the monarchy, including Governors-General as part of that, it is a history that is averse to divorce. The “until death do us part” part of the marriage vow was not only an intention but also very strongly part of the moral code of society and was very much tied up with religion. So to include clause 16 in this bill is a very modern thing to do.
Clause 16 gets away a little bit from the strictures of religion that have shaped our constitutional history, in some ways in too narrow a manner. Indeed, earlier this afternoon we had the prayer that has been read in Parliament for many years. In that prayer the term “true religion” is used. It is a phrase that dates back in the British Parliament to the 1600s. “True religion” means the Protestant religion. The reference to “true religion” is the Protestant religion against another religion—that is, the Catholic religion. That is the origin of the prayer we hear in Parliament each sitting day. In the Protestant tradition, true religion was associated with a very strong tie against divorce, and to marriage for the rest of a couple’s life. Clause 16, in allowing something different, is quite progressive.
Trevor Mallard’s comments about the multicultural element of this clause were quite relevant, too. There are various religions with different codes of marriage and divorce. They will be taken into account as part of our multicultural dimension. I think also when we talk about religion, moral codes, and how they are reflected in this we have to take into account the issue Phil Twyford talked about in his speech. I think he was really talking about the outdated character of the monarchy, which the Governor-General is a part of. One of the problems with changing the laws of inheritance, which Gordon Brown, to his credit, wanted to do—and he took the matter to a Commonwealth Prime Ministers conference before he lost office—is that the monarch in Britain is officially the head of the Anglican Church. Therefore, Britain cannot have someone who is not an Anglican, or someone who has converted to Catholicism, as its head of State because that person is not an Anglican. That offends against our human rights laws and our ethos. I think that all relates back to this very modern clause, clause 16, which allows for conflicting claims relating to the annuity for spouses following, for example, the death of the Governor-General. Thank you.
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) Link to this
I too want to refer, firstly, to clauses 16 and 17 in the Governor-General Bill. I appreciated Mr Hayes’ intervention to clarify his interpretation of clause 16, and, although it may have dealt with some of the issues that Mr Mallard raised, it certainly did not deal with all of them. It definitely did not deal with Mr Mallard’s principal issue about clause 10(2), which we have had no answer from the Minister in the chair on.
I do think that the circumstances in which there could be conflicting claims are reasonably simple in terms of the way in which we live our lives in New Zealand, beyond any extension to the possibilities of the backgrounds of the kinds of people who might become Governor-General at some point. Basically, this is about a situation where a Governor-General may have had two partners during the time that he or she was Governor-General. It is quite a reasonable circumstance to imagine. Somebody may enter into a relationship, and the job of Governor-General is a stressful and difficult one at times and involves long hours, and that could lead to somebody separating and having a new partner. So I think the issue of conflicting claims is a sensible clause to have within the bill as it is about something potentially quite real.
On that point, it is worth noting that this bill is very modern legislation. Clause 4 lists the definition of partner as “a civil union or de facto partner”. The bill brings us forward into the 21st century in terms of the kinds of relationships that people can enter into. I think that clause 16 is a sensible clause, but I take the point from Mr Mallard that if we move through to clause 17, then the question of who makes the decisions on this matter is something that is up for debate. Again, in the interpretation clause, the definition of authorised person is “a person authorised to make decisions under section 16 by the Minister who, with the authority of the Prime Minister, is responsible for Ministerial Services”. At this moment that is the Prime Minister. So the Prime Minister will be appointing a person to listen to such claims.
I agree with Mr Mallard that a public servant in that position could be placed in a very difficult position in making those sorts of decisions. It may be a public servant who has a role that is subservient to the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services. I think that could lead to some unfortunate pressure being placed on a public servant to make that kind of decision. It will be a decision that, if one can imagine the circumstances I mentioned before, people will be particularly concerned about. No doubt it would attract a great deal of public interest and it would be a matter that the person would have to take very seriously. I do note that subclauses (2) and (3) in clause 17 refer to various rules that will apply, in particular, the High Court Rules, and the Judicature Act in relation to appeals against a decision of the High Court. There is clearly a judicial element to this role, and I think it is important that someone appointed to it can be independent and can make decisions like this without any particular pressure.
The other clauses in Part 2 that I will refer to in particular are clauses 25 and 26. I do this because throughout the debate a number of people have mentioned the current Governor-General. They have said what a nice person he is and that he has related well to these proposed changes.
I absolutely endorse those comments—he is a great New Zealander, I say to Mr Twyford. But I think it is important to note that clause 25(2) exempts the incumbent Governor-General from the changes in this bill. Clause 25(2) specifically states that all of the Governor-General’s allowances “… are as if this Act had not been passed.” Although it is worth saying that the current Governor-General is a humble man, which he is, and that he is a person whom we all greatly admire and who deserves our support on any occasion, he actually will not be covered by this law. However, under clause 26, the annuities are “in accordance with this Act.” So I guess from the point of view of a buyer-beware situation, the Governor-General is already in this situation. Therefore, the conditions under which he took up his position are being protected, but, at the end of the day, his annuities are not.
Although I think we all see this bill as a good step forward, and we are also dealing with the changes to the Income Tax Act in this part, those changes will not apply to the incumbent Governor-General. He does not have too much further to run in his term, but a number of members have mentioned that point and it is probably important for us to clarify that. Part 2 puts in place what is being done in Part 1. Although the Labour Party is supporting this bill, I think it is clear from the speeches we have heard that we would like some further conversation on constitutional arrangements.
Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) Link to this
I am taking a call to address several aspects of Part 2 of the Governor-General Bill. In referring to clause 16, the one thing we can be certain of is that clearly the present Governor-General will not be using these provisions. That is a good thing, because we talked about the calibre of the present Governor-General earlier and we know for certain that there is no need for him to use this part of the provisions, at all. However, it is fascinating to try to understand why this clause is there and what might be the set of circumstances in which it might be brought into play. The Hon Trevor Mallard’s thesis about how this clause might come into play has been fascinating, as was the speech of the previous speaker, my colleague Mr Grant Robertson, as well.
There probably are some areas where it would come into play, and perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Heatley, will take a call and explain what his thinking was about this particular provision. That might clarify some of the concerns that members on this side of the Chamber have raised. The Minister has not taken a call so far and we have asked several questions. I am sure that he is keeping all his answers for one tight response, which I am sure that he will take just prior to 6 p.m., so we know we will have those answers. I can see it is possible that this might be utilised. The honourable Minister has his answers provided on very small sticky Post-it notes. [Interruption] Is that what it is? OK, I thank the member. But I am serious about this; it is testament to the officials who worked on this bill that they have considered it from many aspects and it is very thorough. Clause 16 is an example of that.
Referring now to clauses 19 and 20, here we have a stand-alone enactment once this bill is passed that relates to all of the conditions to do with the Governor-General. I think that is a good thing. It is an easy place to go to. It comes out of the Civil List, and here will be all of the provisions. So clauses 19 and 20 do a good job. Perhaps from a public perspective, they will be interested in the provisions in clauses 21 to 24, which refer to the requirement that the Governor-General pay taxes. The public of New Zealand will probably take this very seriously and will take great heart from it, because it is beginning to say that we will treat our Governor-General as an ordinary person. Colloquially speaking, we will treat him in terms of a person who is earning a salary. Part 1 makes those changes, and here, in Part 2, the Governor-General will be required to pay taxes like the rest of us. There will be widespread support for this particular provision. It regularises the position, as indeed do all of the other clauses.
There is great transparency, as others have said. I would expect the present Governor-General—indeed, I am certain that this is so—would support this type of provision, because the present Governor-General has not even taken the salary rise that he was entitled to. He said that he takes a different position on this. He seriously understands the current climate and has demonstrated that he wants to be treated in this particular way. I will also refer briefly to clauses 25 and 26. Here, the present Governor-General is again protected in terms of ongoing annuities. The provisions in clauses 25 and 26 do not compromise the provisions applying to the present Governor-General. Clause 26 is just making certain that there is an avoidance-of-doubt clause there, and makes certain that the provisions will apply.
All in all, Part 2 clarifies a lot of the questions we had about this particular role. It regularises many of the provisions, which is necessary, and increases transparency as we understand it. It protects the present Governor-General and enables the public to have greater faith and confidence in this particular role in terms of its holder being treated like every other taxpayer.
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 164 in the name of the Rt Hon John Key to insert new clause 20A be agreed to.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I would like to now further debate especially questions around the amendment to the Civil List Act in clause 18—
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) Link to this
No, I have started to put the vote. When I have started to put the vote—
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) Link to this
Well, I have. I put the question that Part 2 stand part. I have put the amendment. We have voted on the amendment, and now we are moving through. The final part is to put the question that Part 2 as amended stand part. There is no opportunity to relitigate once I have started to put the vote.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am reluctant to disagree with the Chairperson and his ruling in this area—and I can see that the Standing Orders are being passed to you—but it has long been the practice of this House to have votes on amendments to particular clauses, then to move on, especially where there are parts and amendments that affect particular clauses, to further debates on the bill as amended.
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) Link to this
I thank the member for his comments. I refer him to Speaker’s ruling 115/1, which is headed “Putting the question”. I refer the member to the second to last sentence onwards, which states: “If there is no closure it is incumbent on members to seek the call to continue the debate if they wish to speak. If members do not call, the chairperson begins to put the questions on the amendments and there can be no further debate on the clause.” That is the position we are in and I have so ruled.
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) Link to this
The first question I would like to ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Heatley, is that although the commencement date indicates that the legislation comes into force on the day after the date—
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
The first question I refer to concerns the title of the legislation, the Governor-General Act 2010. Unlike a number of title debates that might be semi-facetious, there is a real and live question left with this one, which is whether we think it is necessary to have separate legislation. Matters previously have been very well dealt with under the Civil List Act in particular, and under the legislation covering the Remuneration Authority. The Committee has agreed to the amendments to the bill—I think it is fair to say there has been some debate around them, but, by and large, there is agreement to them—but I would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Carter, to explain to us why he thinks it is necessary that we have additional legislation of this type, rather than doing what Parliament would normally do, which is to incorporate this sort of change into the primary legislation.
The problem I see now, as we are dealing with this, is that people who go to, for example, the Civil List Act, and the functions of the Remuneration Authority under that Act, will not be able to see in the Act the Remuneration Authority’s role vis-à-vis the Governor-General—or that appears to be the case. It appears that it has been subsumed into this new legislation, which is to be known as the Governor-General Act. I think there is a live question there. I am not so much of a Geoffrey Palmer, or at least like him when he wrote “the fastest laws in the West”—what was the title of his book?
Hon TREVOR MALLARD Link to this
That is right. In the period especially between 1981 and 1984 Geoffrey Palmer made many, many speeches about how we had far too many Acts in New Zealand, and that we should be working on consolidation rather than proliferation. So that is the first question of the series that I want to ask the Hon David Carter.
I congratulate the Hon David Carter on acting for the Prime Minister. I think it is fair to say that the Minister looks and sounds a little bit more like the Governors-General of my youth than does his friend Phil Heatley; it might be to do with the history of the landed gentry. I am sure that Mr Carter will be better at responding across the detail of this legislation, and in particular the need for having a separate Act rather than taking what I thought was generally the policy of the Government, which was to consolidate and bring together legislation, and to make it easier for people dealing with legislation going forward to find things.
What we will have here is a Civil List Act, on the face of it. At least, if the Minister can explain to me that I am wrong, I will be happy to—
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) Link to this
Members stand up and seek the call. It is perfectly within the purview of the Chair to call whoever is the next speaker. I have called Phil Twyford. If Phil Twyford does not want to take the call, he can sit down. I will call again.
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) Link to this
This is too cute by half. That is not a yield. The call is for Phil Twyford. I will give the member one last chance. If the member does not take the call this time—this is the third time—it will be gone.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can you explain to the Committee why you have ruled that out? A member seeking and being yielded to is not a usual occurrence, but it has occurred on a number of occasions in the past. I have been discussing with people recently the changes to the Standing Orders in the last 20 years. There have been some, and it may be that yielding is no longer available. Could you explain to me why you ruled that that was out of order?
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) Link to this
I draw the member’s attention to Speaker’s ruling 59/1. It is consistent with my understanding that yielding occurs where there is an interchange between members over an issue, and one member asks the other member to yield so that the member can take up the matter. It is an interchange—a contest between two members interjecting over ideas. One yields to the other so that the other member may carry the point.
That is simply not the case in this particular instance. The fact is that the member Trevor Mallard was speaking and at the end of his call Phil Twyford and a number of other members sought the call. I thought the member had made his point. It is up to me to consider the point of the speech. The member had gone round and round over several points, and I thought he had made every point he was going to make, and would continue to plough up and down exactly the same part of the paddock. The Chair was looking forward to some fresh information, and was ever optimistic we were going to hear a fresh speech, so I gave the call to Phil Twyford. I say to members that if the honourable member Phil Twyford does not want to take the call—it is being given to him for the third time—I will not call him for the rest of this debate.
PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) Link to this
Thank you, Mr Chair. That is a powerful incentive to take this call. I will do my best to plough a fresh corner of the paddock.
The furrowed brow.
We are now debating clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement. This is the moment in the debate when traditionally we can recap and explore some of the broad themes in relation to this bill. The title of this Act is the Governor-General Act 2010. I think by now colleagues in the Committee will be clear that Labour’s position on this bill is that we support its passage. We have spent a considerable amount of time considering whether Keith Locke’s Supplementary Order Paper should be debated. If it had been adopted, it would have seen the insertion of a mechanism for electing future Governors-General with a 75 percent majority of the House. I think we traversed the ground quite well. We are in favour of streamlining, and bringing transparency and clarity to bear around, the arrangements for remuneration for the office of Governor-General.
Labour supports these measures. We see them as overdue reform. The bill is a modernisation of the arrangements. It amends the Civil List Act, establishes its own legislation to deal with these matters, recognises the importance of the office of Governor-General, and updates and modernises, for instance, the definition of “family”, and the way that family is recognised in the payment of the annuity for the Governor-General and the payment when the Governor-General has left office. We support all of those things. We think they are sound.
But we believe that at this moment the Committee could go further. Now is the time we are debating the status of, and the arrangements around, the office of Governor-General, so it would be a great time for Parliament to lead a national conversation about the future of the office of Governor-General. Keith Locke’s Supplementary Order Paper took us some way down that track towards considering how the Governor-General is appointed. But, ultimately, I think we need to have a debate as a country about the future status of, and arrangements for, our head of State.
This bill is called the Governor-General Bill. When it is enacted it will be called the Governor-General Act 2010. It could be called the “Governor-General (Modernisation) Bill”. It could be called the “Governor-General (Transparency) Bill”. It could be called the “Arrangements for the Partners, Spouses, and Family of the Governor-General Bill”. I think we are indebted to the Hon Trevor Mallard for ploughing the paddock, as you so eloquently put it, Mr Chairperson. Trevor Mallard really shed light on the possibilities under this bill for future, polygamous Governors-General to be adequately catered for by this legislation. I think within our multicultural, modern New Zealand that is only appropriate. The law should recognise that.
There are other possible names for the Governor-General Bill. It could be the “Tidying up of Arrangements around the Governor-General’s Remuneration Bill”, but without the vision and the appetite for comprehensive reform in thinking through the long-term future of the office of Governor-General or the arrangements that we have for selecting and appointing heads of State. I will leave my contribution there.
CHRIS TREMAINGRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) Link to this
I promise to be interesting. I too obviously am referring to clauses 1 and 2. I will pick up on what my colleague Trevor Mallard was talking about before, because it is a relevant consideration. We are creating here an Act specifically in the name of the Governor-General, and that is something different from the situation we have had before. In my previous intervention, I mentioned one of the specific ways in which that is playing itself out: the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet will now no longer have the level of responsibility for the office of Governor-General. That would perhaps justify an Act in the name of the Governor-General—that is, this Act recognises the specific and unique status of the position of the Governor-General. I think that is, therefore, one of the justifications for a bill or an Act on its own. Mr Mallard said that the proliferation of Acts of Parliament is one of his particular bugbears, and those of us in the caucus with him often have to hear from him about whether there always needs to be legislation. This is an issue where it is a lineball call, in many ways.
I agree with Phil Twyford that the title of this bill could easily be called the “Modernisation of the Governor-General’s Role Bill”, because that really is what it is doing.
It is also introducing an element of fairness, so it could be called the “Governor-General’s Taxation Fairness Bill”. That element of the bill I think will get the most attention from the media when they are reporting on it. No doubt, when it takes up many column inches in tomorrow’s newspaper, there will be a focus on the fact that this bill makes the next Governor-General pay income tax. That is also worthy of mention, perhaps, in the title.
It could be called the “Next Governor-General Bill”, because one of the things that I think was missed in the early part of this debate was that this bill does not apply to the incumbent Governor-General. His terms and conditions remain unaffected by this legislation. So we very much could easily have called this bill the “Next Governor-General Bill”, but we have not done that; the Government has focused on a more generic title, giving it an enduring sense by calling it the Governor-General Bill.
It is elegant. It is elegant in its simplicity, I say to Mr Tremain. I am really pleased that the Government is now taking a role in this debate, because it is very, very interested in being part of the debate on the title of the bill. The Government is now interjecting, showing that this is an issue that needs further debate. Quite clearly, over on the Government benches there is now concern about whether this should be called the Governor-General Bill.
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