2. Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) Link to this
to the Minister of Corrections
Does she have confidence in the Department of Corrections?
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) Link to this
In spite of the years of neglect inflicted on the department by the previous administration, yes.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
Does she have confidence in all the advice provided by the Department of Corrections about the cost of privately run prisons in comparison with public prisons, even though it has been giving her advice since last December that shows that the cost of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison—the only example New Zealand has to draw on—is more expensive than the public equivalents, which is advice that is completely contradictory to her claim that private prisons are cheaper to run?
Hon JUDITH COLLINS Link to this
Yes. The department also provided advice that included the 70,000 hours of rehabilitative treatment that the Auckland Central Remand Prison had to give when it was privately run. The figures that the member is talking about were not actually included. The real figures—the “apples with apples” comparison rather than the “apples with oranges” one—show that private prisons are better value.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the Department of Corrections advice of 18 December 2008, which states: “The costs of the ACRP were higher than those of publicly run prisons.”
Mr SPEAKERHon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
The second document is departmental advice to the Minister on 10 March 2009 that “the closest scenarios” the department is able to provide show the privately run Auckland Central Remand Prison to be more expensive than the public prison service.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
The next document is departmental advice to the Law and Order Committee on 20 July 2009 and 25 August 2009 that the per prisoner costs of the Auckland Central Remand Prison were more expensive when privately managed than when the Department of Corrections was in management the following year, and more expensive than the per prisoner cost of remand prisoners—
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
I think it is germane to the question, Mr Speaker. It is your call, of course.
Leave is sought to table a document presented to the Law and Order Committee. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is objection.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
Does the Minister have confidence in the advice given to the Law and Order Committee this afternoon by the chief executive of the Department of Corrections that it would not be equitable to compare the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison with the entire public prison system at the same time, because the Auckland Central Remand Prison dealt only with remand prisoners?
Hon JUDITH COLLINS Link to this
Unless I actually saw the direct quote myself, I could not take for granted that rendition of it from the member, because, of course, he has paraphrased it. I can, however, have confidence in the quote from the department’s chief, who told me that in New South Wales private prisons cost 32 percent less per prisoner than public prisons, and in Victoria they cost 11 percent less. That is the comparable figure.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
Given that we are talking about New Zealand and not Australia, why did the Minister tell the House on 18 August 2009 that Auckland Central Remand Prison’s “equivalent in the public sector cost $61,796 per prisoner.”, when that is the cost comparison across the entire public prison system, which her chief executive has said is not an equivalent or fair comparison?
Hon JUDITH COLLINS Link to this
Because those are the figures given to me by the department. I have said time and time again that it is very difficult to actually compare the remand prison when it was run privately—when there was health treatment and there was all sorts of rehabilitation for 70,000 hours a year—with the publicly run prison, where there was not. Unfortunately, that member does not want to hear the truth, but that is what it is. It was a better service.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
Given that we now have four documents from the Minister’s department that contradict her, is she aware that one of the reasons—
Hon Rodney HideI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That cannot be allowed. The member started off without a question and made a highly charged political statement, rather than simply standing up and asking a question.
I accept the point the honourable member makes that although I have not insisted on questions starting with a question word, I think it is very unhelpful when members make a provocative statement at the start of a question. I ask the member to not do that, and to ask his question without that.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could I then get some advice, because it is now a fact on the record of the House that there are at least two, and I think there was an objection to two other documents—
This is not a matter that can be litigated by way of point of order. If the member wants, I can go back to insisting questions simply be started with question words. I do not want to do that; I like the House to have more freedom. But the member would be wise not to make a provocative statement at the start of his question. I invite him to ask his question.
Hon Clayton Cosgrove Link to this
Is she aware that one of the reasons it is so difficult to asses the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison is, to quote her departmental advice of 10 March 2009, “the lack of visibility on some of the private operators’ information”, and will she therefore support the Supplementary Order Papers introduced by Labour that seek to increase the transparency of private prisons?
Hon JUDITH COLLINS Link to this
I think it is important to remember that it was some years ago that the Auckland Central Remand Prison was privately managed. I stick to the advice that we are after a quality service in our prisons, not a cheap service. If we were just after cheap, nasty services, we would put everyone in tents.