8. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) Link to this
to the Minister of Education
Does he agree with the Prime Minister’s statement about the alleged 1997 incident in which, as a teacher, the Hon David Benson-Pope walked into the dormitory and bathroom of 14-year-old girls changing: “that he behaved in accordance with school policy at the time”; if so, what was that policy?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) Link to this
I agree with the Prime Minister’s statement. I am also aware that Mr Benson-Pope has stated that his behaviour complied with school policy at the time, which, I understand, was for a staff member—
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
—does the member want to be quiet, so he can hear it—for a staff member, gender not identified, to give a wake-up or hurry-up call to students.
What standard of behaviour does the Minister of Education believe is appropriate for male teachers who are responsible for young teenage girls, many thousands of whom are on school camps right now?
Hon Phil GoffCan the Minister confirm that the claims and innuendo made several times now by Mr English and Dr Brash have in fact been contradicted by the statements made by the principal, who made it absolutely clear that: “There is no question about anyone entering the showers,” there was no question about any compromise of privacy, and the hurry-up call was made from the door; and, further, that those statements were in fact supported by the girls who were quoted in the Herald on Sunday last Sunday?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
Yes, I am aware that the account given by the principal differs from the account given by people such as Mr Bill English. It is my understanding, of course, that Opposition members have embarked upon using sources such as that from Investigate as their sources of information. I do not think anyone in his or her right mind should use that journal as a source of information.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Has the Minister of Education seen any photo, fact—even if it is only one fact—or piece of acceptable evidence from Messrs English, Brash, and Hide, or from Ms Collins, in respect of these allegations; and what will this do for male recruitment into important professions such as the teaching profession, and for the retention of males who are in those professions now, if someone can be scandalised in this House without one fact being produced to back it up?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
I confirm that I have not seen any evidence from Mr English, from Ms Collins, or from Mr Hide. I imagine that all members in the House would like to see evidence, where it exists, because they, too, could have claims made against them at any time, and they also would want to see evidence.
Does the Minister believe that a school should hire a teacher surrounded by the following allegations: stuffed a tennis ball in the mouth of a student; hit a student in the face—accepted as prima facie by the police; slapped a teenage girl on the thigh; kneed a male student in the groin; entered a girls’ changing room while girls were showering; burst in unannounced on girls getting changed after a mud run; accused of bullying other teachers; and made pupils stand outside in the cold in their nighties, as verified by the police; should any school hire a teacher surrounded by that swirl of allegations?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
I would hope that any school hiring a teacher would ensure that it found out the truth about any allegation surrounding a person, and would not rely on the words of Bill English, who routinely misleads on issues relating to the education sector, as he is doing today.
Can the Minister confirm that last week the Government defended Mr Benson-Pope by agreeing with his statement that the allegations were nonsense, that yesterday it defended him by agreeing with his statement that he acted within school policy, and that today it has changed its position again and defended him on the basis of its statement that the principal did not regard the behaviour as serious enough to warrant formal disciplinary proceedings; and will the Government change its mind again tomorrow?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
The first point raised by Mr English was the one relating to the Investigate magazine, where Mr Benson-Pope referred to it as nonsense. I regard anything in the magazine as nonsense, by definition. The school policy at the time, as Mr Benson-Pope has pointed out, was for people to give a wake-up or a hurry-up call. That was the policy, and that is what he acted within, as I understand it. And, thirdly, do we rely on the principal’s statements? Well, he gives a range of statements and we have used those—just as he has—to provide evidence.
When will he show some leadership as Minister of Education and stop hiding behind sly half-truths and acknowledge that the behaviour that has been described is not the behaviour of a decent male, let alone a professional teacher?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
I would regard the behaviour of a decent male to be that of getting up in this House and providing real evidence for the assertions he makes. If Mr English has the courage of his convictions, he might like to try to provide a bit of evidence for a change, and be a real man.
Rodney Hide. In response to the Minister’s answer, I seek the leave of the House to table the police report that shows a prima facie case against the Minister for hitting a pupil on the nose—
Madam SPEAKERI have understood, as has the House, the nature of the member’s comments. In raising this matter, the member needs only to identify clearly what the document is; it is not to give a speech. The document is the police report. Is there any objection to that report being tabled?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I invite Rodney Hide to try to seek leave again, but if he gets up again and describes something as being a prima facie case, then how will the rest of us understand what on earth he is seeking to table?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
No, he said it had something to do with the police and that it was a prima facie report. With the greatest respect, I am not aware of that sort of document. Perhaps he could describe it to me.
I think the rest of the House understood that it was the police report. I shall put it. Is there any objection to the police report being tabled? There is no objection.
Can the Minister confirm that it is now the Government’s position that there is no evidence for any of the allegations that have been made against David Benson-Pope, that the police report has no merit, that none of the allegations involved serious behaviour, and therefore there is no case to answer whatsoever?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
The police report is the police report. We have all read it, we all understand what is there, and of course, nothing was proceeded with from that. From the point of view of the Government, of course, we have heard a number of allegations, but we have not heard evidence that supports those. The member can provide that evidence if he would like to, but so far he has not been man enough to do so.
We are trying to eliminate those little innuendos and side bars. “Real man” has been mentioned several times in the House in different contexts.
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
Madam Speaker, I would take your own ruling and say that if the member wants to serve it he will have to take it.
That is the difficulty we have, I must say; we do have responses across the House. So I think we should all note that for the future.
Hon Dr Michael Cullen Link to this
In light of one of the previous questions and answers, would the Minister regard it as appropriate for a school to hire as a teacher somebody who was convicted of pushing an elderly man down the stairs, or somebody else who was told point blank by a judge that he did not believe a word of what he had said, as happened to Dr Nick Smith?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY Link to this
As I said before, I would hope that all schools would have policies that would allow them to understand the character of the people they were hiring. If they were given evidence of someone who was convicted for pushing someone down the stairs I would hope they would not hire that person. If they were given evidence of someone who misled the court, likewise I would hope that they would not hire that person.
Hon David Benson-Pope Link to this
During my question earlier I intimated my intention to ask for leave to table a document I had received, and I now do so. I request leave to table a letter from a parent who attended a 1997 camp at Tautuku in the Catlins discussing the accusations that have been made.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is in line with a point of order I raised before. I seek the House’s leave for time to be set aside so that Messrs Brash, English, and Hide, and Ms Collins can now table some evidence for the first time.