8. Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) Link to this
to the Minister of Foreign Affairs
Can he guarantee that no prisoners taken in operations involving the New Zealand Special Air Service in Afghanistan were transferred to the National Directorate of Security in Kabul and tortured?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY (Minister of Foreign Affairs) Link to this
Following the decision to redeploy the Special Air Service to Kabul, the Government completed discussions with the Government of Afghanistan to establish an agreement regarding the treatment of detainees transferred by the New Zealand SAS forces to Afghan authorities. An agreement was signed between the two Governments requiring that such detainees should be handled in accordance with applicable international and domestic law, and that their treatment should be subject to the full scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross and other relevant organisations. To date, no detainees have been transferred by the SAS to Afghan authorities, which is a reflection of the mentoring and support role played by the SAS in relation to the Crisis Response Unit of the Afghan National Police. The welfare of detainees captured directly by Afghan authorities or transferred to them by other forces is a matter for which others might properly be held to account.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was specifically about joint operations—where the SAS was involved in joint operations with Afghan forces. I asked whether he could provide a guarantee that in that situation these people were not transferred to the directorate and then tortured. He talked about the agreement, which was fine, and he talked about where the SAS directly captured people, but he did not address the question of joint activities.
Mr SPEAKERI thought the Minister gave a pretty comprehensive reply. The member has several more supplementary questions, and this is a classic example of how a supplementary question could be framed to ask specifically that question, rather than trying to do it by way of a point of order. I think the member is being a bit unreasonable.
Is the Minister saying that he cannot rule out that prisoners taken in joint operations involving New Zealand forces went on to suffer torture including amputations, electric shocks, starvation, beatings, and burns, as outlined in London’s High Court?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
I am saying to the House that the Government takes direct responsibility for the detainees who are transferred by New Zealand forces. The welfare of detainees captured directly by Afghan authorities or transferred to them by other forces is a matter for which others might properly be held to account.
Does he therefore agree with the Prime Minister’s comment that when the SAS is involved in joint operations with Afghan forces “it’s not our responsibility when it comes to those people that are detained.”?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
I accept that New Zealand has responsibility to ensure appropriate treatment of detainees transferred to Afghan authorities by our forces. I even accept that we should make relevant inquiries about the position of detainees held after an operation in which we have played a part. That is what we are doing currently in relation to the matters raised by the member. But I suggest to the member that for New Zealand to be accountable for the welfare of every detainee held as a result of all of the operations undertaken by the many forces in Afghanistan is a rather greater responsibility than we should carry.
Does he agree that the Government’s attitude is effectively one of looking the other way while Afghan forces take prisoners off to be tortured—prisoners whom New Zealand forces helped to place into captivity?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
I make it very clear that where New Zealand transfers detainees to Afghan authorities, we take responsibility for ensuring that appropriate steps are taken in relation to the detainees’ welfare. I even accept that we should make relevant inquiries about detainees held after an operation in which we have been involved. The New Zealand Government is currently involved in making such relevant inquiries.
In the number of years that the New Zealand SAS has been involved in joint activities with Afghan forces, how many inquiries has the Government made as to the well-being of prisoners who were captured by Afghan forces in these joint operations and transferred to the National Directorate of Security?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
The member may well be aware that there were three deployments of the SAS under the time of the previous administration, and that the current Government deployed it again in October of last year. If the member wished me to give a comprehensive answer in relation to all of those deployments, he would need to give me notice of that question.
Will New Zealand follow the lead of British forces, whereby there is a ban on transferring prisoners to the National Directorate of Security in Kabul, due to the risk that they would be subjected to torture including amputation, electric shocks, starvation, sleep deprivation, beatings, and burns?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
I am advised that the British authorities have suspended the transfer of detainees to the National Directorate of Security. The advice I have received is that this suspension occurred because of concerns regarding the access of officials to detainees who were held there. If the member feels that that advice invites further scrutiny, I agree with him; I am subjecting that response from officials to such further scrutiny.
Does he think that it is acceptable for New Zealand soldiers to be risking their lives to prop up an Afghan Government that all the evidence from British courts, British Governments, and Amnesty International shows routinely tortures its citizens?
Hon MURRAY McCULLY Link to this
I think it is fair to say that the New Zealand Government understands that there are some shortcomings in relation to the operation of the Afghan Government. From time to time we are given the opportunity to express those views directly to President Karzai and his Ministers. I have done so personally on more than one occasion, and will continue to do so.