6. SIMON POWER (National—Rangitikei) Link to this
to the Minister of Justice
Does she stand by the Prime Minister’s statement last year regarding her Government’s approach to gangs that “No one has been idle here. People have been very proactive.”; if so, why?
Hon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice) Link to this
Yes; because this Government and Government agencies have taken criminal gang activity seriously. For example, in 2007 over 26,000 separate charges were placed before the courts against persons identified with gang connections.
Can the Minister confirm that if the bill she has just introduced had come to the House immediately after it was signed off by Cabinet on 9 July last year, then every gang member who has offended in the past year—like those who allegedly cut a swathe through a Hawke’s Bay party at the weekend, using machetes and baseball bats—could have their sentences doubled if found guilty?
The member may not be aware, but this Labour-led Government is a minority Government and does require support from other parties. It would have been interesting to see whether the National Party would have supported that bill, having spent most of the last 8½ years opposing the justice bills that have come before this House.
Hon Phil GoffCan the Minister confirm that the New Zealand Police and Department of Corrections’ estimates are that around 40 percent of all known gang members are currently in prison; if that is the case, is that not evidence that the police have been targeting gang members involved in organised crime, and have been successful in getting them arrested, convicted, and imprisoned?
It certainly is working, because I can confirm that the New Zealand Police and the Department of Corrections’ estimates are that around 1,500 gang members, or 40 percent of the New Zealand gang population, are already in prison for various offences. Those involved in organised criminal activity can expect to be targeted and dealt with. The prison figures reflect this, and the police are being effective in doing just what we expect them to do.
Ron MarkHas the Minister heard the comments of her ministerial colleagues who continue to say that there are only 3,500 gang members, associates, and affiliates in New Zealand, when a former Minister of Police, George Hawkins, told the House in 2002 that there were 10,000 in 1995, when the same Minister told us in 2003 that the number in 2002 had risen to 21,882, and when the Police Association said on television last week that the number could be as high as 60,000—is the Minister seriously telling the House that she believes there are only 3,500 gang members in the country?
The member asked me this question last week. I took the time to get the New Zealand Police to get me the details of gang members and the latest figures it has. I gave them to the member in the House last week. I also said that the police were actively working on reviewing the figures, because they stressed that obtaining accurate figures was difficult due to factors such as people being dishonest with the police about their gang membership or associations and the fact that not all gangs wear patches. Certainly, organised criminal gangs, like our white-collar criminal gangs—
—yes, I will leave the National Party out of it—and those who have come in from Asia, are very hard to identify.
Can the Minister confirm reports that the previous Minister of Justice, Mark Burton, had been too busy to find the time to table the bill last year because he was dealing with the electoral finance legislation; and what should New Zealanders think when her Government puts dreaming up an undemocratic campaign-finance law above the need to deal to gangs?
Can the Minister understand the scepticism of the public, who see gang members wearing their colours every day of every week of every year, in the streets and in their communities, and who see the violence and mayhem in Wanganui, Hawke’s Bay, Tauranga, Manurewa, and Manukau, yet who hear this Government minimising the size of the issue by telling them there are only 3,500 gang members, associates, and affiliates in the whole of the country?
The member would be incorrect to say that the Government is minimising the issue of gangs and gang membership. I gave the member the figure provided to me, and I must take at actual value the information provided to me. I certainly say to the member that the Government does not underestimate the impact of gangs. I noted the comments made this morning on the radio by Denis O’Reilly, who in fact, as the member will know, was a former gang leader. He had this to say: “These occurrences we have just seen were quite common in the 1990s. But these things can occur when there is simply a change of someone coming out of prison, or a change in a local gang hierarchy and local politics.”, which means we always have to be vigilant about those who would participate in criminal gang activity.
Does the Minister stand by the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday that urban design is now to blame for crime, after the Minister already claiming it was the sun and the moon, and a Budget 17 years ago; if so, why do Cabinet papers show that she passed up the opportunity to strengthen laws that would have made it easier for the police to tear down the real urban design problem—that is, gang fortifications—as National proposes, when it is these forts that have been the target of recent gang warfare in Invercargill?
I can tell the member that the Prime Minister certainly is not as superficial as the member’s question. The Prime Minister has always taken a comprehensive approach to issues like crime, looking at all the causes of crime—not just coming up with a flash slogan one can get out just before an election.
Can the Minister confirm that Ministry of Justice officials attempted to set up a workshop with other Government agencies involved with gangs, to be held in June 2005, with the aim of establishing an organised crime task force, but that this workshop and the inter-agency task force were both dumped and no further work was undertaken for a further 2 years until the death of Jhia Te Tua in May last year; or is this just another example of her Government’s proactive approach to gangs?
No, I cannot confirm that. But I can confirm that when Simon Power made a speech about National getting tough on gangs, one could ask why it took National years to come around to being tough. It took them till May 2007 to become tough—incidentally, after there was a drive-by shooting of a young child—even though we know that a similar drive-by shooting, identified by Ron Mark just this morning, happened in the mid-1990s. I can tell the member, also, that of his four-point plan this Government has already accomplished three of the points.
Can the Minister confirm that, according to Cabinet papers, the new Organised and Financial Crime Agency is supposed to be established “at the point of the enactment of the enabling legislation, planned for 1 July 2008”; and how confident is she that that bill will be passed by 1 July—next Tuesday?
That bill will not be passed by next Tuesday. It requires the support of this Parliament, and we have been working with our confidence and supply partners in terms of votes for this. It is interesting that National members are so interested in this issue—they refuse to support the Organised and Financial Crime Agency and they voted against the transitional clauses going to it.
The very powers that are in the Serious Fraud Office are transferred over to the new agency for them to be used not for just financial crime but for organised crime as well. National members are not able to grasp that fact, though everybody else seems to have been able to.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I seek leave to table the record of a National Party spokesperson on police saying that the day after the election he would bulldoze down the gang headquarters around New Zealand. That was John Banks, of course.
Madam SPEAKERI seek leave to table an answer from a former Minister of Police saying that in 1995 there were 10,000 gang members, associates, and affiliates—