7. RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
Does she have any concerns about the security of Ministers’ computer systems; if not, why not?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister) Link to this
I have no specific concerns. I am advised that the security systems employed by the contractor responsible for the system are kept up to the appropriate industry standards, and there is no evidence of serious security breaches.
How can she have any confidence in the computer systems when clearly a secret espionage operation has been successfully directed for some years against the leader of the National Party, National MPs, and their parliamentary staff?
Madam SPEAKERThe Prime Minister has no responsibility for the Parliamentary Service, only for Ministerial Services.
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Indeed; to add to that point, the Ministerial Services’ system is a separate system from the Parliamentary Service’s system.
Hon Bill EnglishHave Ministers sought assurances from him about the security of the ministerial email system, and is he satisfied that its standards are matched by those of the parliamentary email system?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I cannot comment about the parliamentary email system. The ministerial system is managed by Unysis New Zealand Ltd and has a variety of security measures. I do not know who runs the parliamentary system or how that would compare with the ministerial system.
What assurance can the Prime Minister give to the people of New Zealand that Government offices and computers are safe and secure from secret and malevolent spying by anonymous forces, whose motives remain hidden—as, indeed, has happened to the National Party through the Parliamentary Service system?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The member is making an assertion in his last comment, and I have no idea whether there is any truth in it. Many other rumours have run around this place—
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Well, I think one was that I have managed to hack, but anybody who knows my manner of success—
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Thank you colleagues! I think they are commenting on my capacity to engage in that kind of activity. Clearly, one cannot give a 100 percent assurance in these matters, at all, but security systems on the ministerial system are kept up to date on a daily basis. There have certainly been incidents of people trying to hack into the system. These have been identified and specific blocks put in place.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
In the search for hackers, snoopers, conspirators, and agents provocateurs, has she read the quote from Dr Brash that states: “I have no doubt whatsoever that this information has been obtained by criminal activity by half a dozen or so of National Party people very close to my office”; and does this not prove that the suggestion that hackers from outside the complex have unlawfully gained access to emails inside the complex—
Hon Dr Nick SmithRt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Oh, yeah—your mates. I’ll tell the member who it is—right amongst his mates—
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Can I start again, Madam Speaker, because I have lost the plot here?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Dr Brash said—and I quote him: “I have no doubt whatsoever that this information has been obtained by criminal activity by half a dozen or so”—
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Well, why would the police be looking for something that Don Brash knows about?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
—oh yes, you do—“very close to my office”, and does this not prove that the suggestion that hackers from outside the complex have unlawfully gained access to emails inside the complex is at least a tad far-fetched?
Gerry BrownleeI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You cannot possibly accept that question, because the question asked by Mr Hide relates to the Prime Minister and the Ministerial Services. Mr Peters is relying heavily on the absolute tripe written in The Hollow Men, a copy of which is being waved around by Judith Tizard.
Oh yes, it is. I think, Madam Speaker, that to try to say that this question allows Mr Peters to run off and take some misquote from Dr Brash, and go down this road, is wrong. The onus is on Mr Peters, actually, as someone who knows where the emails came from, to go to the police and to tell them. But he will not, because he is frightened.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Surely, the intent of this question is to ensure that MPs, parliamentary leaders, and Ministers—and, indeed, the Prime Minister—have security of communication. Surely, that was the intent of the original question. That being the case, I am quoting from the leader of the National Party last week, and this is his statement. I will table the document if the MP from Auckland who is making a lot of noise, but who has been demoted in the space of 12 months in a career, wants to keep on arguing it. All I am saying is that if Dr Brash knows, then perhaps he can help the Prime Minister in the answer.
The question was in order, but in replying, the Minister has to be careful about ministerial responsibility—it did ask for reports.
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I have indeed seen the report that Dr Brash made that statement. I have to say from a Labour Party perspective, one certainly would not find six senior members of the Labour Party who would open their hearts up to Mr Hager, and I am surprised that there are six National Party MPs who did so.
What action, if any, has she taken to ensure the security of email systems in ministerial offices and, indeed, in Parliament, or is spying OK as long as it is directed at the National Party?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I am not sure what the last bit is meant to imply because, as I said, the ministerial system is quite separate from the parliamentary system. Certainly in respect of the ministerial system, there are firewalls designed to detect any unusual activity, and these are monitored regularly so that any unusual activity should be noticed. But, as in the case of any such system, there cannot be 100 percent certainty. I do not know whether the parliamentary system has similar kinds of firewalls in place.
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Does this not raise the interesting question of how parties like New Zealand First or United Future get on, because they have—
I have no doubt that they get on well with each other, but the voters—hmm, it is not good at the moment. I would just point out that those parties have Ministers who are part of Cabinet, so they must be part of the ministerial system. Yet, those parties’ own members are, I presume, still part of the parliamentary system. So where are the points of integration, and how secure is that?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
It is exactly the same as any party in Government. For instance, Labour Party back-benchers are on the parliamentary system and Labour Party Ministers are on the ministerial system. That member will always be on the parliamentary system.
Ron MarkI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I ask you again, please, as a member from one of the alternative parties. That was another gross example—and it was obvious once the member had got into the first sentence—of Mr Brownlee abusing the point of order process and the Standing Orders. I understand that I cannot interject when a point of order is being made, but when it is so clearly, obviously, and patently not a point of order, but simply the member taking an opportunity to slag, bag, and take political point-scoring opportunities, what protection do we have? We either interject and make the point, and get thrown out of the House, or we sit here and rely on you, as the Speaker, to deal with Mr Brownlee.
Well, I dealt with Mr Brownlee, but sometimes it is always important, as you well know, to wait until the member has completed his thought. Sometimes members take longer than others to complete a thought.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I seek leave to table a Sunday News 26 November article headlined “Brash blames party over leaked emails”.