2. JOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
Does she stand by her statement that the Electoral Finance Bill went through “full Cabinet processes”; if so, why?
Why did Cabinet sign off on legislation that was so full of holes and so Draconian that, even after having some clauses knocked out by the select committee, the Law Society, most political commentators, and every major newspaper in the country are still saying it should be thrown in the bin?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I could quip, just like the DVDs. [ Interruption] Well, no one over here is being accused of piracy.
Madam SPEAKERRt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
My understanding is that many organisations came to the select committee fully supporting the objectives of the bill. They had issues with the wording. The bill has been amended. There is a Government Supplementary Order Paper today. I understand there is also a Supplementary Order Paper from the Opposition, and I am happy to say that at first glance a couple of its suggestions already appear useful.
Can the Prime Minister explain why Cabinet agreed that the electoral period should begin on 1 January of each election year, thereby giving us the longest election period in the democratic world relative to the length of our electoral cycle?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I understand the United Kingdom period begins at the beginning of the year. If the member thinks that this is a long electoral period, he obviously cannot be watching the American election campaign.
How is a piece of legislation that is so complicated that the Electoral Commission admits it will have to tell people with questions to seek their own legal advice, and that its chief executive fears could lead to an Americanisation of New Zealand politics through endless court battles, going to enhance freedom of speech and democracy in New Zealand?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
The Americanisation came with the work of the “hollow men”. The member was one of the key bagmen who went around collecting the money, briefing the Exclusive Brethren, and knowing they were funding the campaign.
Jeanette Fitzsimons Link to this
Does the Prime Minister agree that the Electoral Finance Bill is designed to stem the flood of secret money into political parties—for example, the practices revealed by Nicky Hager’s book The Hollow Men, whereby the National Party in 2005 received secret millions of dollars from members of the Business Roundtable, including David Richwhite, Alan Gibbs, Doug Myers, and Peter Shirtcliffe?
Gerry BrownleeI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I would ask you to consider whether that question meets all the requirements of the Standing Orders regarding the asking of questions. It does carry a range of allegations, suppositions, and epithets, and those are not allowed in questions. I believe it should be ruled out. The reality is that the member quotes from a work of fiction—[ Interruption] No, this is fact. We do have Standing Orders in this House, and that question does not meet those Standing Orders.
Hon Dr Michael Cullen Link to this
I thought the member did something extraordinarily useful. She not only referred to certain data but provided authentication for that data in the middle of her question—a policy I recommend to many members who ask questions in the House.
I did not see anything particularly wrong with that, but I think the member, in raising the point of order, does remind us that imputations in questions and answers are contrary to the Standing Orders, so I will of course in the future take a harder line on that.
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
The member’s question reminded us of just how much big money was sloshing around for the National Party in the last election campaign. [ Interruption] I know that the National Party does not like the “hollow men” to be exposed. They were exposed, and the reason for this new bill is so that they do not get a chance to do that again.
If the Prime Minister is really concerned about the use of big money, why does she not move to address the really big money in our electoral system—that is, the use of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money for parties to spend on election material like the pledge card, and the use of tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money for soft advertising from Government departments, which we know this Government now treats as part of its own political party?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
That is typical of the hyperbole that has come from the Opposition across the whole bill. I refer back to The Hollow Men and Mr Goldsmith’s email to Don Brash, which talked about Mr Key’s schedule being one of “meeting with loads of big donors”. That was his role in the last campaign—to thwart electoral law through the Exclusive Brethren and through big donors.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
In the interests of public harmony, is the Prime Minister prepared to switch her concern about the electoral legislation to a concern about commercial law—because, after all, anyone who is paying that sort of money is paying it for a product fit for the purpose: hopefully, that those invested in will one day be in Government and will therefore be able to implement the policies for which the money was supplied; and that being the case, surely it is to do with the Sale of Goods Act and someone should ask those business people to demand their money back, because clearly their investment in politics was wasted?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Prime Minister can say she is in charge of any portfolio if a question is put to her, and I am putting to her a very rational, sane question about the ethics of business investment. If one is to invest in a political party for a result, one wants there to be a result, and not for there to be someone with his or her nose pressed against the window of power for the next 12 years—which is sad but true.
Jeanette Fitzsimons Link to this
In view of the millions of dollars in secret donations that, according to the evidence I just produced, the Business Roundtable has made to political parties of its choice, is the Prime Minister surprised, then, that the marches against the Electoral Finance Bill are being organised by John Boscowen, a member of the Business Roundtable?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
No, I am not surprised. I understand that he has also been the ACT party’s fundraiser. I would have thought that in terms of the return on the capital investment, spending $120,000 on automated calling to try to get the good people of Ponsonby out to a march, and getting 5,000 people there, was a pretty poor investment.
Is it not a sign of abject failure on the part of the Government that the Minister in charge of this bill, and the Minister before her, cannot explain it except to say that people will have to rely on common sense; and how does the Prime Minister expect well-intentioned, honest, ordinary New Zealanders to understand a bill that her Government cannot even understand?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
One expects people to read it carefully and to consult lawyers—as political parties always have done.
When is the Prime Minister going to admit that the reason she is forcing this legislation through is not that it is good legislation, not that it meets with the form of protocol and the processes of electoral law, and not that it is good for New Zealand, but that she is so paranoid that without it she thinks she has no hope of winning an election?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I would like our little democracy to be as free from big money, from Mr Key’s mates, as other little democracies are.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Is the Prime Minister aware that not too far from this country are smaller democracies—well, hopefully, growing democracies—where the character and shape of those democracies have been seriously perverted by the insertion of outside money for a particular purpose; and is that not what this country’s sovereignty is all about—which the National Party used to believe in when it knew what the word “national” meant?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I believe it is indeed true that in small neighbouring countries big money from outside has had a considerable impact—and, I submit, an adverse impact—and I think it is time our country kept up with international standards of best practice in electoral law.
Metiria TureiDoes the Prime Minister then agree and share the concerns of John Cain, a former Premier of Victoria, that in Australia a $10,000 party donation will buy one an audience with the Prime Minister, and does she agree that the Electoral Finance Bill is an attempt to stop that cancer of corruption and bribery from spreading from Australia to New Zealand?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
Most certainly I agree that the bill is a strong attempt to get rid of covert funding of the kind the National Party has always encouraged in politics.