2. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader—National) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
Does she have confidence in her Minister of Foreign Affairs; if so, why?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) Link to this
Yes, because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.
Was Mr Peters, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, speaking for the New Zealand Government when he stated: “There would be no advantage to an immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.”, and “… circumstances would slide into total chaos, if that was to happen.”; if he was not speaking for the New Zealand Government, what is the position of the New Zealand Government?
Keith LockeIs it not peculiar that our Minister of Foreign Affairs is speaking out in favour of more young Americans being sent to be killed, or to kill, in Iraq, when our Government has quite rightly—
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is one thing to tolerate mischievous journalists seeking to misrepresent what I said; it is quite something else within this House to have a member say what he just said—which is totally not true.
Madam SPEAKERThe member raised a point of order. I have ruled on the point of order. The member said that was not what he said in the statement.
Is it not peculiar that our Minister of Foreign Affairs is speaking out for a continuation of the Iraq war, which will result in more young Americans killing and being killed in Iraq, when our Government—quite rightly—has kept well clear of the Iraq war?
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Has the Prime Minister seen any reports about the primary questioner’s credentials regarding the question of troop withdrawals or of his views regarding National’s spokesperson on foreign affairs, and of the National leader’s foreign affairs crisis, which has seen him—despite having several so-called foreign policy experts within his caucus—take the extraordinary step of setting up an independent thinktank, including Jim Bolger—
Gerry BrownleeRt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
No, no. When I am talking, the member keeps quiet. Point of order—
No—please be seated. If the member engages with chit-chat, then there will be disorder in the House. Would the member please just ask his question. The ruling is that reasonable interjections are permitted.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Has the Prime Minister seen any reports about the primary questioner’s credentials regarding the question of troop withdrawals or of his views regarding National’s spokesperson on foreign affairs, and of the National leader’s foreign affairs crisis, which has seen him—despite having several so-called foreign policy experts within his caucus—
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I mean, no one is responsible for that member. In fact, after the last leadership crisis he got demoted. In fact, he jumped before he got pushed, and made it seem like some magnanimous act. But to carry on—[ Interruption] Look, this is not a woodwork lesson; this is about foreign policy—the National leader took the extraordinary step of setting up an independent thinktank, including Jim Bolger, Jenny Shipley, and other doubtful, dubious foreign affairs luminaries.
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
My understanding of Mr English’s credentials was that he supported the war—he got up in this House on 18 March and stated that New Zealand should be supporting the coalition of the willing. As to where the National Party gets its foreign policy advice from I can only agree with Mr English, who stated in writing to Dr Brash: “You need to know now that the experienced people you have will not work in a Government run by Mr McCully.”—who is, of course, the foreign affairs spokesperson.
Can she tell the House whether the New Zealand Government agrees or disagrees with the position advocated by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that “… circumstances would slide into total chaos” if US forces withdrew from Iraq?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
The New Zealand Government, and most parties represented in this House, did not support the war in Iraq. It does not have troops there, and it is not getting involved in a debate about what other nations should do with their troops.
I asked for quiet so that the Hon Bill English could put his question. I ask for quiet from the Opposition while the Hon Phil Goff puts his question.
Hon Phil GoffHas she seen the comment that New Zealand was too far away from Iraq to judge the best course of action; who made that comment, and is it consistent with what his co-leader and other members of his party have said before and since?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I understand it is Mr Key’s position that Iraq is simply too far away. That did not stop Mr English committing his party to supporting the war.
Can the House take it from the answer the Prime Minister gave to my previous question that she does not know whether the New Zealand Government agrees with the statements made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and what confidence can New Zealand or any foreign Government have in that Minister if she cannot back statements publicly that he made publicly about New Zealand’s position?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
In a Government I lead, a Minister from another party is entitled to express an opinion. That may be novel to the member.
So how are foreign Governments and New Zealand voters to know whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs is expressing a personal opinion, when he made these statements in an official press conference after an official meeting in his official capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs with the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Australia; and in what circumstances can we ever expect Winston Peters to actually articulate Government policy?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
The short answer is: a lot more easily than one would find out what the current position of the National Party is on Iraq.
Can the Prime Minister confirm that the positions on this side of the House on non-involvement in Iraq have, in fact, been consistent, whereas the positions taken on the same question by the National Party have been multiple and contradictory?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I can certainly confirm that. Indeed, I see some people taking a range of positions from supporting our sending troops in 2003, to claiming in December last year that they never supported our sending troops. Both positions were taken by John Key—and, no doubt, by the party’s co-leader, Bill English.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I tell the member to keep quiet—that is the last time I tell him that. Madam Speaker, this is a question.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
It is now a point of order. I was going to ask a question, but it is now a point of order. Madam Speaker, although you have appeared to allow some intervention by way of statements from members of parties when someone is putting a question, surely that is not allowed. And if I had been about to make a point of order, the member should never have opened his mouth in the first place. That is all I am saying. I rose to ask a question and I would have liked to be able to actually put the thing before Mr Smith—who always has these psychological problems anyway—
That is an entirely inappropriate comment about another member, as the member knows. What the member has asked for is that members show a little bit of restraint and courtesy so that we can all hear what the question is. The noise was such that I thought the member was originally asking for a point of order. Would the member please ask his question succinctly.
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think that if you consider the comment just made by Mr Peters, you will find it appropriate for him to withdraw and apologise for that remark. Given that you are asking everybody to draw a bit of breath and give people a fair go, that remark is hardly in line with what he has just offered to the House.
Did the member take offence at the comment? The member does take offence. Is the member asking for the other member to withdraw?
Hon Dr Nick Smith Link to this
I ask the member to withdraw and apologise. It is totally untrue and unfair.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I apologise for saying that the member had psychological problems.
The member knows that that is out of order. [ Interruption] The member will sit down or he will be out of this Chamber. The member knows well enough that in these circumstances a member merely withdraws and apologises—he or she does not repeat the allegation. If there is any more of that, the member will be out of the Chamber. Would he please just ask his supplementary question.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I withdraw and apologise. It is done. Can the Prime Minister contrast the situation now of someone in the Government who, as a Minister, can give an honest opinion on a tragic humanitarian problem, whether it be in Afghanistan or Sudan, and that of someone who rose in a National caucus meeting, asked a simple question like: “What has the leader been doing?”, and got sacked out of caucus? [ Interruption] That is the contrast.
I am trying to see where the ministerial responsibility is. [ Interruption] I am sorry, I have ruled on that matter. If the member wishes to ask another supplementary question, he may do so after the Hon Bill English, whom I call for this supplementary question.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. If you are to allow the primary question and all others to be based on the precept of one’s opinion, then surely I am allowed to ask a similar question based on opinion, as well.
No, what the member was asking for, as I heard it, was a comparison. There is no ministerial responsibility in those circumstances. The member may wish to reflect on how he can ask a question that is within the bounds of the Standing Orders.
Does the Prime Minister recall an assurance given by the Hon Phil Goff to the Australian Foreign Minister that “policy from Winston will not be policy spun off the top of anybody’s head” but will be the policy of the Labour-led Government; and, given that that assurance appears to have been breached, has she or her officials been in contact with the Australian Government to explain to it that when Mr Peters speaks at official press conferences after official meetings, he is probably not expressing the views of the New Zealand Labour - led Government?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
As I said in response to an earlier answer, Mr Peters made it very clear that it was his opinion. I state further that it was an honest opinion about a tragic situation. We are not used to hearing honest opinions from some others in this House.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Has the Prime Minister received any reports as to the wisdom of decision making when members of Parliament give an opinion that might affect the governance of the day—such as, for example, a case when a Minister gave his honest opinion on a very tragic circumstance and how the world might help its improvement—or, by way of similar contrast, someone asking what the leader is doing, then being fired straight out of the National caucus?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I repeat that I believe the Minister gave an honest opinion about a tragic situation. Apparently honest opinions about the leader of the National Party lead to one’s expulsion from the caucus.
It is difficult when members of the Hon Bill English’s party interject to the extent that it is difficult to hear him.
If, as the Prime Minister states, the Minister of Foreign Affairs simply espoused an honest opinion about a tragic situation, then why did she not say that yesterday instead of denying that it was anything to do with the Government; and, if it was an honest opinion about a tragic situation, can she now take this chance to tell the House her honest opinion about this tragic situation?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
I repeat that New Zealand has no troops there, and the New Zealand Government is not telling other nations how to run their policies there.
If the New Zealand Government will not tell other nations what they should be doing with their troops in Iraq, has she now instructed the Minister of Foreign Affairs to stop giving the impression that he is speaking on behalf of the New Zealand Government in telling other nations what to do with their troops, or is he to be allowed to continue giving his personal opinion wherever he goes, anywhere in the world?
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
What a terrible thing it is for someone to state: “It is my opinion.”, and then to be damned by the National Opposition, which expels people from its caucus for stating an honest opinion about a hopeless Leader of the Opposition. We have just heard from the former hopeless Leader of the Opposition. The other one has deigned not to be here to speak on this.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I ask the Prime Minister, in the interests of exactitude, whether it is a fact that the New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs gave no opinion or view whatsoever on an exit strategy or a withdrawal of troops from Iraq, short term or long term, but was speaking about something else entirely.
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK Link to this
That would be my interpretation. The Minister spoke about February 2007 and the situation as he saw it.