2. Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
What advice did he personally receive from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade before recommitting SAS troops to Afghanistan?
Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) Link to this
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, along with a number of other departments, provided advice in the preparation of material for Ministers making the decision on whether to redeploy the SAS to Afghanistan. I was one of those Ministers.
Was the Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade, John Allen, correct in stating on Q+A on Television New Zealand on Sunday that “we didn’t advise the Government to send the SAS to Afghanistan”; if so, what was the advice of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade?
Mr Allen was quite correct: no specific view was ever provided to me by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade on whether to redeploy the SAS. That decision was left to Ministers.
What heed did the Prime Minister pay to the warnings given to him surrounding the deployment of combat forces, such as the inadvertent killing of civilians—like the death of 95 civilians near Kunduz just last week—which has led to the growing alienation of Afghan people from the international forces there?
Part of the advice from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade was clear. It was frank advice on the security situation in Afghanistan and the importance of the role New Zealand could play in stabilising Afghanistan. The previous Minister of Foreign Affairs and Defence had this to say: “Security and stability in Afghanistan will be not be restored by peacekeeping and development assistance alone.” That was from Phil Goff, who thought it was right to deploy the SAS three times when he was in Government; in Opposition, he does not.
Mr SPEAKERBefore I take the honourable member’s supplementary question, let me say the question specifically asked whether any advice was received on issues to do with the safety of civilians, and the Prime Minister did not—
It is not a point of order. I have just pointed out to the Prime Minister that, in fact, I listened very carefully and the advice—
The advice was frank on the security situation; it was not specific to civilians; it was just generalised advice about security.
What advice was given to him in respect of whether most Taliban combatants were local groups operating independent of any international influence, and to what extent the Taliban was under the influence of al-Qaeda?
Keith LockeWill the Government be following Australia’s example of openness and accountability in telling us which Afghan provinces our SAS unit will be operating in; if not, why not?
It is not my practice, nor was it the practice of the previous Government, to discuss the operational details of the SAS deployments. I may at an appropriate time make a statement about its whereabouts, but I do not intend to do that at this time.
In his earlier answers, was the Prime Minister telling us that he made the decision to deploy SAS troops to Afghanistan without any information as to whether what was happening in Afghanistan today was relevant to international terrorism and as to whether there was a growing alienation of Afghan people against the presence of international troops?
No. What I said earlier was that a range of advice was provided to me about the security situation in Afghanistan. Advice was also provided not just by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade but by my departments, the intelligence departments, and by the Ministry of Defence on a range of areas. In the end the decision on whether to deploy SAS troops to Afghanistan was made by the Government.
Is the Prime Minister prepared to see New Zealand lives put at risk to defend a regime that is known to be endemically corrupt, that is widely suspected of huge electoral fraud in the recent election, that is working today in conjunction with warlords known to have committed gross human rights abuses, and is known to be linked to criminal groups involved in drug trafficking; if so, why did he make the decision to recommit SAS troops?
Let me try to answer at least one or two parts of that rather rambling question by the Leader of the Opposition. First, we are responding to—
Hon Darren HughesI think it is a bit like Afghanistan in the Labour caucus at the moment. But putting that to one side, New Zealand responded to a call from the International Security Assistance Force to help out in Afghanistan. Of course New Zealand could have not responded to that call and so could have a lot of countries around the world. But what is the alternative? The alternative is to return to a Taliban-led Government that was oppressive and that cared not one jot about women. I suspect that if that Government were to be returned to Afghanistan the same Labour Party currently arguing about our desires to try to put some security back into Afghanistan would be arguing from completely the other corner.
Why did the Prime Minister favour the redeployment of SAS troops to Afghanistan, given all the problems that have emerged in the last couple of years, which led the previous Labour Government not to redeploy the SAS, and why did he agree to withdraw from Bamian the provincial reconstruction team, which is regarded as a model by others in that country and has the support of local people?
Maybe it is useful for me to remind Mr Goff of his own words about the SAS. This is what he said when—[ Interruption]
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very straightforward question. I indicated in that question that a number of things had changed in the last 3 years, and clearly, from the start of the Prime Minister’s response, he was going nowhere near actually trying to address the question.
With respect, the Leader of the Opposition did ask why the Government had departed from the views of the previous Labour Government in respect of the deployment of troops. I think that the Prime Minister was answering that part of the question in what appeared to be a fairly direct response.
Let me remind Mr Goff, because it may be useful, of what he said when the SAS was deployed under his leadership.
I am sorry, my little chipmunks, I do not know, but I will get the year and come back to you. Anyway, this is what Phil Goff said when he deployed the SAS to Afghanistan. He said that their presence, together with other international forces, had been “critical both to constrain the influence of al-Qaeda and Taliban elements and to allow nation-building and reconstruction to take place.” Nothing has changed.
Why has the Prime Minister ignored all the advice that was given to the previous Labour Government and that in the last 3 years of the Labour Government led that Government to decide that it was no longer appropriate to send combat troops to Afghanistan and that we should assist in other ways, such as the provincial reconstruction team, which was far more effective?
I apologise to the Prime Minister for interrupting for a moment, but there was a fair bit of exchange during the previous supplementary question. The Leader of the Opposition has asked a pretty straightforward and serious question, and his own colleagues do not help elicit an answer by a lot of interjecting, because they invite the Prime Minister to respond to the interjections. If they want to hear an answer to the question, I suggest they ease off a bit.
It is a very simple position. New Zealand has over 150 people in Bamian as part of an international effort trying to stabilise Afghanistan so that one day all of us can leave Afghanistan. What the Leader of the Opposition said is quite correct: at the moment the situation in Afghanistan is getting more dangerous, and it is getting worse. The Government acknowledges that. We have only one of two options. One is that we lend our shoulder to the wheel, as other countries have, to try to stabilise the position and basically make sure that the Taliban is restrained, or we decide to leave our troops in the reconstruction unit in Bamian, in which case they will be in a worse position. I for one can assure the Leader of the Opposition that if ever I am the Leader of the Opposition I will not be arguing that I would do something completely different if I were in Government.
I seek leave to table a section from the Commonwealth of Australia parliamentary debates on 28 February 2007, where the Australian defence Minister explains the deployment of Australian special forces in Oruzgan province.