1. Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
Why does he continue to deny that during his term as Prime Minister the wage gap between Australian and New Zealand workers has grown, when both the figures he tabled in the House last week and the Parliamentary Library figures he referred to in his answer yesterday show that it has?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Acting Prime Minister) Link to this
Despite the claim made by the Leader of the Opposition, the Parliamentary Library figures the Prime Minster received and tabled yesterday show that between 2008 and 2009 and 2009 and 2010 the weekly wage gap between New Zealand and Australia, if measured in absolute dollars, increased slightly from $213 to $219 a week, and, if measured as a percentage gap, decreased slightly from 20 to 29 percent. The truth is that over the short term these sorts of comparisons are very sensitive to assumption and methodologies. This Government is happy to be judged on its longer-term record, which can only be better than the last Government’s record.
Can the Prime Minister tell us how the absolute dollar differs from the ordinary dollar that people spend in the shop each week when ordinary New Zealanders know they have fewer of them to pay for prices that are going up?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
The answer is not as difficult as the Leader of the Opposition might think. For example, at the moment inflation in Australia is currently running at over 3 percent—
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you will recall that the question asked how the absolute dollar varies from the ordinary dollar.
Mr SPEAKERIf I recollect, the question asked how the Minister explained something—the difference between an absolute dollar and an ordinary dollar. The Minister has to have a little bit of licence in how he explains something.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
The Leader of the Opposition does not like it when his argument starts to be deconstructed. The reality is that in Australia at the moment inflation is running at over 3 percent, contrasted with New Zealand’s current inflation rate of about 1.8 percent. So although it might look like Australians are getting bigger wage increases, that is not necessarily the case. It simply once again shows how difficult it is to compare figures between our two countries. The reality is that the performance under the previous Labour Government was an utter shocker.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened patiently for the Prime Minister to explain how an absolute dollar differs from an ordinary dollar, but I do not think he made any reference to it.
I accept that that was the question asked and that the Minister was asked to explain the difference, and the Minister, in responding, talked about the impact of inflation on dollars. Certainly, inflation affects the value of dollars, and when one is talking about absolute or ordinary dollars inflation does have an impact. It was a reasonable answer to the question asked.
Hon David ParkerI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that the Speaker has ruled that we cannot seek leave to table New Zealand press statements, but am I correct that we can seek leave to table foreign newspaper statements?
I seek leave to table the article from the Sydney Morning Herald entitled: “NZ wage gap with Australia widens”, which begins: “Australian workers are being paid even more than their Kiwi cousins since National became the government.” [ Interruption]
I ask the honourable member to resume his seat. [ Interruption] When the Speaker is on his feet there must not be that kind of interjection, and I will not repeat it because I do not want it to be on the record. All round there was far too much noise while I was considering the leave. Leave has been sought to table an article from the Sydney Morning Herald. I think that is not readily available to all members, and I put the question to the House. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I point out that the article concerned is a New Zealand Press Association document picked up by the Australian newspaper.
If a member seeking leave to table a document describes it wrongly, that is quite a serious matter, because it is a formal situation being put to the House for the House to make a decision. There are proper ways of dealing with that, but it is not by way of a point of order to allege something in the way the Leader of the House just did. He should not do that.
Hon Rodney HideHow does the Prime Minister expect the wage gap with Australia to close when the figures just released show that 53 percent of all New Zealand wage and salary earners did not get any wage rise last year and when figures in the Budget show that inflation will be hitting 6 percent?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
I think the question that the Leader of the Opposition asks and the information he refers to is interesting, but it goes to the heart of the problem of trying to compare like with like. There is no such thing. I want to tell the member that it will be the initiatives in the Government’s Budget that will create growth; initiatives such as tax reforms, investment in infrastructure, the research and development package, reforms of the labour market, skills and education, cutting red tape and regulation, extra trade agreements, a reformed Resource Management Act, the International Growth Fund, and focused resources on the front line. All those programmes and all those efforts will lead to the growth that will see New Zealanders’ wages rise.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was straightforward. It asked how he expects the wage gap to close when 53 percent of workers in New Zealand did not get a wage rise last year. No effort was made to answer that question.
If that was exactly the question the member asked—and I must trust him on that—I invite the Hon Gerry Brownlee to focus on the question, because I do not believe there was a lot of extraneous matter in the question. I invite the honourable Leader of the Opposition to repeat his question so there can be no doubt.
How does the Prime Minister expect the wage gap with Australia to close when last year 53 percent of all New Zealand wage and salary earners did not get any pay rise at all?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
The point I make, again, is that the Government’s programme, which was well articulated in the Budget and has been well articulated by a range of Ministers since, is designed to see the economy growing, and it will give New Zealanders the confidence that this Government knows where it is going. They know that the previous Government did not know where it was going, and that is why it was kicked out of office.
Has the wage gap between New Zealand and Australia ever blown out to over 30 percent; if so, in what years did that blowout occur?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
Yes, the wage gap between Australia and New Zealand was never as high as 30 percent until the year 2003-04. Using the same series of numbers that the Leader of the Opposition himself used in the House the other day—[ Interruption]
I think the member makes a perfectly fair point. I realise that these matters are hotly debated, but the Hon Rodney Hide asked a fair question and he deserves to hear the answer, as does the House. I must say that even the Speaker was struggling to hear the answer. I ask members to be a little more reasonable.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
Using the same series of numbers that the Leader of the Opposition used in the House the other day, I say that the wage gap between Australia and New Zealand was never as high as 30 percent until the year 2003-04. Since then, it has been over 30 percent in 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, and 2007-08. The wage gap peaked at 37 percent in 2005-06, and it is currently 29 percent.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask that the Minister table the official statistical document from which he was just quoting.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
The source document is from the New Zealand Parliamentary Library. It is available to all members of Parliament.
What are the targets or milestones to achieve income parity with Australia by 2025, which his Minister for Economic Development told the House last week that he had?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
I understand that the Minister for Economic Development told the House last week that he was considering such matters.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I can, if necessary, table what the Minister for Economic Development said last week. I asked what the milestones were that the Minister said in the House last week that he had. That answer did not address that question.
If I recollect the Minister’s answer, last week he told the House that he would be considering the issue of milestones. In fact, if the member were to look at today’s question sheet, one of his own colleagues is asking the Minister for Economic Development how he has got on with his consideration. So I think there is some verification that that is, in fact, what the Minister said.
Further to the point order, Mr Speaker; in answer to the primary question to the Minister for Economic Development last week: “Does he have targets or milestones to achieve income parity with Australia by 2025?”, the answer very clearly was “Yes”. I am now asking the Prime Minister what those milestones were that his Minister for Economic Development referred to. I think that the Acting Prime Minister should know that.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
I invite the member to set that down as a question for the Minister for Economic Development. [ Interruption]
I cannot hear members asking questions from the back of the House if we have loud interjections across the front of the Chamber. I ask members to respect that.
Hon Sir Roger Douglas Link to this
Why is it important that New Zealand lifts its economic performance, and does he believe that the Government is on track to achieve its concrete goal of closing the income gap with Australia by 2025; if so, why?
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
Yes, it is important to lift New Zealand’s economic performance, because that is how we raise the living standards of New Zealanders, improve public services, and give people genuine opportunities and choices in their lives. In answer to the second part of the member’s question, yes, there is a considerable gap between the incomes of New Zealanders and Australians now, but we think we have made good progress in starting to turn round the economy and taking steps to make it more competitive. I have well established today that the constant claims by the Labour members that the gap has got worse, by its own measure, is wrong. It is now 29 percent; it was 37 percent at one point under them.
Could the Minister please tell the House what were the two statistical series provided to him by the Parliamentary Library that he used in answer to the question from Mr Hide, being the statistical series for Australian wages and the statistical series for New Zealand wages?
The question asked from what series the Minister was reading. The Minister may care to answer further, but it seemed to me to be a different series altogether. Would the Minister care to confirm that, because he was asked which series it was. I invite the Minister to further answer.
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
Thank you for your invitation, Mr Speaker, to answer further. I do not have the series in front of me. I have the analysis of those series, which is not uncommon when answering questions.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Acting Prime Minister recently told us that he was quoting from a document from the Parliamentary Library. If that was the case, the document will clearly state the series. They always do. They indicate the source of the statistics. Either the Acting Prime Minister was telling the truth this time—
The member will resume his seat; he will not make that kind of allegation. The Acting Prime Minister has told the House that the material he is quoting from is an analysis—a further analysis of those series—and that is where the matter stands. That is what the Acting Prime Minister has told the House, and that is where the matter now stands. Members can ask further questions about it to elucidate exactly what the analysis is, but they cannot question it by way of point of order.
Why did he tell the House yesterday that the employment rate in New Zealand is higher than in Australia when the statistics show that exactly the opposite is true?
I seek leave to table the statistics I have just referred to, the source being the Australian Bureau of Statistics, June 2010, which shows the employment rate in Australia is higher than it is in New Zealand, in contradiction of the claim by the Prime Minister.
I am not sure how a document from the Australian Bureau of Statistics would show New Zealand unemployment.
The document is compiled from both the Australian Bureau of Statistics, June 2010, and the New Zealand household labour force survey—
The document I have is a compilation from the statistics that can be demonstrated from both of those sources.
The document was put together by my office from the series of statistics I mentioned. They can be verified.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
Was the document from which the Acting Prime Minister was quoting when replying to Mr Hide’s supplementary question a document from the Parliamentary Library or a document prepared in his office?
Hon Darren Hughes Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In response to your earlier quizzing of the Acting Prime Minister about whether it was an official document and therefore required to be tabled in the House if the Minister used it during his answer, he said no, because it was from the Parliamentary Library. You said that that is not normally considered official advice and therefore could be accessed by any member. The Opposition has used more supplementary questions than we had intended today in direct response to you saying that if members are not happy with the answers they can probe with further questions. We are trying to elucidate from the Minister what series he has been using in his statistics. A Parliamentary Library document would show that; they always do—that is clear to all members who use the library. It would be available to members. If it is official advice he has had prepared in his office, that is not easily available to members, and that is what has to be tabled. Either way—
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE Link to this
The series available from the library and all the statistics available from the library are available online. What I have is analysis of that online information. There is one sheet here that the Prime Minister tabled yesterday, sourced to the Parliamentary Library. I am more than happy to table it today. It is condemning of the Opposition’s argument.
There will be no more of that. The Hon Darren Hughes is not really raising a valid point of order. Even if the document is prepared in the Minister’s office, the Minister is not required to table a document prepared to assist him in answering a question. A Minister is required to table only official documents from Government departments. The member seemed to be concerned that the Opposition may have had to waste supplementary questions in pursuing an issue, but I am not sure they were wasted.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to reflect on the issue as to whether an official document is no longer official because it comes from the Parliamentary Library. With respect, I suggest that if an official document such as a data series is obtained by a member from the Parliamentary Library, it is a normal way for that source to come forward. It really remains an official document whether it comes from the Parliamentary Library or direct from the Government department. I ask you to reflect on that.
No, I do not need to reflect for long on that. Official documents are official documents prepared by Government departments. The Parliamentary Library is not a Government department, and material that is prepared in Ministers’ offices to assist them with answers does not constitute an official document, either. I will hear the Hon David Parker further.
It seems to me that whether the data series is photocopied in the library, photocopied in a ministerial office, or photocopied in a Government department, it remains an official document. It is a data series that the House should have tabled if the Minister was relying upon it, and the way in which it is copied for the Minister seems to be a process issue rather than—
The matter is not to do with whether a document has been copied; the matter is to do with the source of the document. If the Parliamentary Library puts together a data series, it is not an official document because it has been put together by the Parliamentary Library. If the Ministry of Economic Development had put together a document for Cabinet and the Minister was quoting from that, it would have to be tabled. If the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet had put together a document for official purposes, that would have to be tabled. But documents prepared by the Parliamentary Library are not official documents. I will hear the Hon David Parker further, but not a lot further.
With respect, Mr Speaker, the difficulty arises from new technology, because the only way the library now presents these official statistics is by downloading them from the Statistics New Zealand website and providing them by email link to us. It is exactly the same as the old photocopy of a piece of paper that was the official statistic. So I suggest again, Mr Speaker, that perhaps you might reflect on that.
No. Statistics publications are available to all members. This provision for Ministers to have to table documents they are quoting from does not cover just ordinary statistics releases, because those are available to all members. So I see no issue here. There has been a longstanding requirement in the House, when Ministers are quoting from official documents, for those to be tabled. Having been a Minister for 9 years, I do not have any great difficulty in discerning what an official document is.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a separate point of order, because I think that you and Mr Brownlee have invited us to get the particular document on which the Minister was relying from the Parliamentary Library. The problem that I would like to put to you, Mr Speaker—possibly more in your role as the chair of the Parliamentary Service Commission—is that it would be most inappropriate for the library to supply to us something that was supplied to another member and indicated that another member had asked for it. I think that it would be wrong for us to go to the library—fair enough, we can ask—but it would be very wrong for them to supply a document saying “This is the document on which the Minister was relying.” That is the problem we have in trying to chase this one down.
We are not going to take further time on this. It is quite clear to me as the Speaker that the document from which the Minister was quoting was not an official document. Therefore, there is no requirement on the Minister to table it. I accept that there might have been some confusion about the exact source of the document, but that is not a matter for a point of order. Members pursued that matter by way of supplementary questions and got some further information about that.