10. PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) Link to this
to the Prime Minister
Does he have confidence in all his Ministers?
Rt Hon JOHN KEY
Hon Shane JonesWhen the Hon Pita Sharples called on the Minister of Local Government to resign if he could not accept the decision to set up the Auckland Council’s Māori Statutory Board, was he correctly reflecting the requirement of paragraph 5.26 of the Cabinet Manual, which reads: “Any public disassociation from Cabinet decisions by individual Ministers outside the agreed processes is unacceptable.”?
No. We have made it clear to Mr Sharples’ office that when he makes comments of those regards, he should not be doing them as the Minister of Māori Affairs. That is exactly the point he was making, but he incorrectly put it on his ministerial letterhead.
Did the Hon Rodney Hide satisfactorily apply paragraph 5.30 of the Cabinet Manual, which states: “Once a decision is reached by Cabinet, … [Ministers’] statements should reflect the fact that a collective government decision has been made,” when he said that the Auckland Council’s Māori Statutory Board should never have been included in the legislation and that he always assumed National would stick to its principle of one law for all, and in the event it decided to go against his advice?
Does the Prime Minister share the view of the Minister of Local Government of no confidence and great doubt, and does he, along with his Minister, seek to dismiss the Māori Statutory Board?
Mr SPEAKERDoes he share the view of his Minister of Local Government of no confidence and concern about costs, and does he seek to have the Māori Statutory Board dismissed?
No, but I do have some concerns about the proposed $3.4 million, given that the Auckland Transition Agency made it clear that it expected the costs to be in the order of $400,000. To me, $3.4 million seems excessive, and I think that is why the Auckland Council has moved to reduce that number to $1.9 million. I share its view that that number, in terms of funding costs for the statutory board, should be lower.
Does he hold the Hon Rodney Hide responsible for Part 7 of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Amendment Act?
Hon Simon PowerYes, Parliament is responsible. Mr Hide is responsible as the Minister of Local Government, and when he is acting in the capacity as Minister of Local Government I believe he has upheld his obligations.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question tries to go to the heart of what question time is for. It asked whether the Minister is held responsible for the content and the effect of legislation that is passed in his name. That is the intent of this question. The Prime Minister has not addressed it.
The member should know that this House really is responsible for legislation it passes. I think the Prime Minister gave a pretty serious answer. I do not think he tried to play around with the member’s question at all; he certainly did not try to attack the member. I think the Prime Minister actually could have played a lot looser and faster with such a question had he chosen to, but he chose to try to treat it with respect. I think that was a reasonable answer.
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue at hand is that the Minister of Local Government has refused to take responsibility for the content of this legislation—
That is not a point of order; the member is now seeking to debate an issue. He asked a question, and I believe the Prime Minister treated the question fairly seriously. The Prime Minister could have treated the question fairly flippantly had he chosen, given the nature of the question. He chose to treat it fairly seriously, and I think that is not unreasonable. But now for the member to try to debate the matter by way of a point of order as to what the Hon Rodney Hide may or may not be responsible for is not the purpose of a point of order. If the member has further supplementary questions, he is welcome to ask them.
Hon David ParkerI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Why would the Prime Minister be entitled to answer flippantly a question about the responsibility of one of his Ministers? That is what the Speaker just said.
The simple fact is that legislation is passed by this House, so the nature of the legislation is a matter for this House. Of course the administration of the Act is something that the Minister is responsible for, but not the Act itself. This Parliament is responsible for legislation, and the Prime Minister could have given a newish member of the House a bit of a lecture on responsibility for legislation. He chose not to. He chose to try to give a reasonable answer to the question. The questioner asked something to do with a matter that this Parliament is responsible for, not the Minister, and that is the end of it. I cannot help with that. The member could have worded his question differently had he wished to pursue the matter, but this House is ultimately responsible for bills that it passes to become Acts. Ministers are responsible for their administration.
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I agree with both of the last points you made. The House is ultimately responsible for bills as they are passed, and Ministers are responsible for their administration. But Ministers also, as part of that process, have a responsibility for recommending to Parliament amendments and Supplementary Order Papers. The Minister sat in the chair for a very long time, and I think you, Mr Speaker, are drawing a relatively long bow to say that Ministers do not have responsibility for their actions as leading legislators on particular bills. I am of the view that a Minister is responsible for the Supplementary Order Papers that he moved for the bill, as Rodney Hide did. The fact that Parliament—in the end by a majority, a relatively small majority—agreed to that does not absolve him from the responsibility that he took in moving those Supplementary Order Papers, which now have proven to be slightly disastrous.
It is an interesting point, except for the fact that if, for example, an amendment was tabled during the Committee stage in another member’s name and passed, the Minister would still have responsibility for the bill—but the House determined what was to be in that bill before it proceeded to the next stage. So, in the end, it is the House that ultimately retains responsibility for the content of the bill. Once it leaves the House, or is signed by the Governor-General—whatever the correct terminology is—the Minister is dead right, as I respectfully suggest so are you, Mr Speaker, in the sense that the operation of that legislation is then directly a matter for the Minister concerned.