4. Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour) Link to this
to the Minister for Social Development and Employment
What did she mean when she said in relation to welfare reform “We may even see an ugly side to New Zealand.”?
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment) Link to this
Let me assure the member that I did not mean her or her colleagues. What I actually said was—
Hon Trevor Mallard Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I invite you to consider the first part of the response to the question, and to rule whether it was in order. It was a simple question. It was not a political question. There was a lot of notice of it. You have given warnings in this area before.
Mr SPEAKERI thank the member. I did not hear the answer clearly, because of the noise level, but from the bits I heard I believe that it was not helpful. I ask the Minister to withdraw that first comment. I did not hear it. I ask her to withdraw it and start the answer again.
Hon Judith Collins Link to this
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did hear the answer, and the Minister made it very clear that she was not casting any comments about—
I have heard enough. I think one would be fairly naive if one did not realise what the Minister was getting at. I do not think it was helpful to the order of the House, at all. That is why I ask the Minister to withdraw that part and start the answer again.
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
I withdraw. I actually said: “This debate could spark prejudices. We may even see an ugly side to New Zealand. But I believe we will also see hope and aspiration. Compassion and understanding.”
I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to look at my question, which was on notice. I asked: “What did she mean when she said in relation to welfare reform ‘We may even see an ugly side to New Zealand.’?”. She did not explain what she meant by that.
With respect, I have to say that where Ministers are asked what they mean by a certain statement, it is very difficult for any of us to judge the answer. She has just explained what she meant. The quality of the answer is up to the public to judge.
What comments, particularly from leaders in our community, does she believe could lead to an ugly side of New Zealand being revealed in relation to beneficiaries; could it be comments like they are living “the dream”, or that beneficiaries “sit around all day watching Sky Television, living off the taxpayer, letting their children run riot and getting stoned”—both quotes from National Ministers, including her?
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
To be clear, the last comment was not my own. But let me be clear that the welfare debate is a very important one to New Zealand. If we do not get the welfare system right, and if we do not do something about it, then in generations to come we will not find it sustainable. So we are going to have this debate, we are going to do it without those sorts of prejudices, and I am quite proud to be leading it.
Katrina ShanksHon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
The problem is not unique to New Zealand. The Welfare Working Group is looking at other jurisdictions. Recent international announcements include Ireland announcing it will stop sole-parent benefits when the youngest child is 14, and Australia deciding to work-test 233,000 single parents with a youngest child aged 7 or over for part-time work. In the UK the new coalition Government has announced that it will replace all existing welfare-to-work initiatives with a single programme to get people into jobs.
With her so-called unrelenting focus on work, has she seen the recent Human Rights Commission project called Focus on Work—which is being undertaken in 16 regions throughout New Zealand, with 300 employers—which shows that the lack of jobs is the critical component as to why people are not working, and that people overwhelmingly want to get back to work; and did she consider that evidence before deciding that too many New Zealanders were choosing a life of dependency?
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
To be clear, about 30 percent of beneficiaries have been on welfare for 4 years or more. That was in the previous decade, when we supposedly saw more jobs that we have ever seen. That tells us there certainly are people who, when work was available, were not taking it up. We want to look at how we can support them differently, how we can help them into work and into jobs as they become available.
Before I invite the Hon Annette King to ask a further question, she asked in her last question whether the Minister had seen a certain report, and I must say that I am none the wiser as to whether the Minister had seen it. Would the Minister care to answer that?
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
In all fairness, I have seen so many reports in the last few months that I do not want to directly say whether I have seen that one; I cannot recall.
Are the attendees at her recent Welfare Working Group forum correct in their view that she is picking up where Ruth Richardson and Jenny Shipley left off, with actions that led, among other things, to a sharp rise in child poverty and the widening of the gap between rich and poor; if not, why not?
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
I think the member is quoting from John Armstrong’s article on Saturday. I have the Dominion Post editorial from yesterday, which, contrary to some of those opinions, states: “it is past time for the Government-appointed Welfare Working Group’s re-examination of welfare in New Zealand. … Something is clearly wrong when 324,914 working-age people [are reliant on benefits].” We are looking at it, we have a cross-section of people looking at it, we have people with a variety of views and opinions going through it, and it will be interesting to see where it ends up.
When she put out a statement claiming that a recent report entitled Realising the Health Benefits of Work underscored the need for welfare reform, had she read the whole report; if so, did she agree with the researchers who found that 41 percent of those on the sickness benefit had psychological or psychiatric conditions, and that mental illness might arise as a result of unreasonable work pressures on them; if so, will she ensure that mentally unwell people are not forced into work that leads to further health problems?
Hon PAULA BENNETT Link to this
Yes, I have read it, and I have read all of it. I would say that it also raises for us the fact that there is no simple solution to that sort of welfare dependency. We have been quite clearly saying that more support may be needed. We may need to look at that whole dependence quite differently as to how we help people with mental illnesses into work, and stay helping them for quite some time. The reason we have not been prescriptive, and have actually made the terms of reference very broad, is so that we can explore those very issues.