8. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) Link to this
to the Minister for Tertiary Education
Did the Government pay $127,605 for the services of a development adviser appointed in June 2002 to assist the council of Te Wānanga o Aotearoa to improve governance of the institution and to attend council meetings; if so, did that adviser report to the Ministry of Education or Ministers?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) Link to this
Yes, and Mr McNally reported on his work assisting the council, in the first instance, to the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit. I am advised that some reports are made direct to Ministers.
Does the Minister agree with Trevor Mallard, who wrote to the wānanga on 20 June 2005 telling it he had made a preliminary decision to sack the wānanga council and replace it with a commissioner; if so, why?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Yes, I can confirm that my predecessor wrote that letter, and I agree that he had made that preliminary decision.
Why has the Government today backed down on its threat to sack the council, when the Auditor-General has just issued a report that found financial mismanagement, badly managed conflicts of interest, and an institution to which the Government will pay well over $100 million of taxpayers’ money this year?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The process begun by my predecessor was, due to the intervention of the election, clearly out of time. There were legal doubts about whether that could be completed. More important, the High Court has found—and this is now subject to appeal so I must be careful how I phrase this—that the council reconstituted itself, and a number of members have resigned from the council. The residual council has been engaged in working with the Crown manager and Crown observer—the same person—to reconstitute a great deal of the operations of the wānanga. Progress is being made very significantly in relation to the matters raised by the Auditor-General’s report, which, of course, was for the years 2002, 2003, and 2004.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
In the interests of advising the National Party freshmen who came in here on the backs of Ōrewa I and Ōrewa II, I ask the Minister whether he remembers—[ Interruption]
Madam SPEAKERNo. I agree; the member will please be seated. Could the member please comply with the Standing Orders when asking the question, and remove all superfluous comments and just ask the question directly.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
I am happy to do that, Madam Speaker. Does the Minister remember which party, when in Government, maintained a cap on funding to Te Wānanga o Aotearoa, and which party, governing by itself in 1999, uncapped funding, which led to the present situation of that institution?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The wānanga was approved for creation in 1993, under the previous National Government. The funding was uncapped in 1999. Of course, when people who represented the wānanga and the Aotearoa Institute came to this Parliament only a few short weeks ago to protest against the Government’s actions in intervening in the wānanga, they were met by a delegation from the National Party.
Is the Minister now asking Parliament to believe that the content of the Auditor-General’s report released today should reassure members that the wānanga council should not be sacked, when back in June Trevor Mallard told the council that it met all six statutory criteria to be sacked and replaced by a commissioner; and what is it in the Auditor-General’s report that should give this Parliament so much reassurance?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Nothing in the Auditor-General’s report—which is a sorry picture indeed of what was happening in the wānanga. The difference is that the council that is now running the wānanga is not the council that was in office in July 2005, as a large number of members of that council have now been deemed to have resigned. If, of course, the situation changes in any shape or form, I reserve the right to do one of three things: first, to restart the commissioner process; second, to investigate and to apply for the possibility of a statutory manager, and preliminary work has already been undertaken on that; and, third, if necessary to come to this House for support for legislation, which has already been drafted and is being held in reserve.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Have any of the Minister’s officials been confused by the sight of the National Party visiting the wānanga in the pre-election period, hongi-ing and talking to its people in the most friendly terms inside, on the marae and in the institution, and then going out and saying something totally different to the media?
Lindsay TischI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How can that have any reference to the debate going on at the moment? The Minister has no responsibility for that. What happens in the election period for National is our business, and that member is completely out of order. His question should be struck out for that reason.
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I was asked whether I have any reports that my officials had been confused by those matters, and I would be very happy to respond on that matter.
There was so much noise I did not actually hear the end of the member’s question, so I was waiting before I ruled on it. I ask the member to repeat the question, please.
Rt Hon Winston Peters Link to this
Has the Minister received any reports from his officials regarding any confusion they may have in their minds, they having seen National Party members in the pre-election period go to the wānanga, hongi with all the senior officials of that institution at their place of domicile, and then go outside and say something totally different and opposite to the New Zealand media?
Gerry BrownleeI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Whether officials are confused is hardly a question that a Minister can answer. The reality is that most Ministers, particularly in that Minister’s ministry, are extremely confused, and it would be no surprise to find that officials throughout the Government are confused. If the Minister were to stand up and say that he has seen reports about confused Ministers, that would come as no surprise, but we would be very pleased if he would table all of those reports.
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
No, I am not aware of my officials ever being confused by anything that National members say—I am not sure that they are interested in that. I am aware that Mr Wētere stated at one point that he was looking forward to the election of a National Government, which would help him to reinstate himself to his position in the wānanga.
Given that the Minister has said he is aware of the letter that Trevor Mallard wrote to the council on 20 June 2005 with his decision to sack the council, which of the six criteria for sacking that the council then met but now do not apply, which means that the Minister has backed down on the threat that was issued?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I explained to the member that my legal advice was that fundamentally the process was out of time. More important, I explained to the member, and I will repeat it for him, that the High Court has ruled that, in effect, a large proportion of the council has resigned. The people who are now, in effect, functioning as the council do not represent the same kinds of views, attitudes, and practices that the Auditor-General’s report has condemned. Therefore, it is possible that we are able to arrive at a satisfactory outcome without further heavy-handed intervention. I repeat that I keep in my back pocket the possibility of, firstly, sending in a commissioner, which requires a consultation process that takes weeks; secondly, sending in a statutory manager; or, thirdly, legislation, which I am sure the National Party will then find a reason to oppose.
When will the Government exercise some accountability in respect of the two Ministers and hundreds of officials who sat and watched the financial mismanagement and badly managed conflicts of interest for the last 5 years, and who did nothing about it?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
It is completely incorrect to say that nothing has been done about it. Apart from the fact that the primary question refers to one particular intervention in that respect, a Crown observer was appointed in February, the council appointed a Crown manager in March, and the commission process started in July. The Government is continuing to work with the new, smaller council at Te Wānanga o Aotearoa. There is every reason to believe that the problems of governance and management that pertained for a number of years at the wānanga are now being addressed. I repeat that should any part of that situation change, I will invite members opposite to vote, if need be, for legislation, which is already drafted, to provide for intervention.