6. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) Link to this
to the Minister for Tertiary Education
What types of courses are paid for out of the nearly $120 million referred to in his reply to written question No. 2740 (2006)? [ Interruption]
Madam SPEAKER
Jill PettisBegging the Speaker’s pardon, I was not interjecting on the member; I was gesticulating to somebody. I apologise. I was not interjecting.
Members, please have some order here. My difficulty on this particular ruling is that frequently members talk—they do not interject; they talk amongst themselves—particularly those seated especially close to the speaker, and it is often difficult to determine whether they are in fact interjecting so that people cannot hear the question or whether they are having a conversation. We have no rule that says members cannot have conversations, so I ask members to please keep a level of quietness in this House so that we can conduct question time in an orderly way.
Why, when the courses have cost the Government $120 million of public money and involve 79,000 students, is the Minister unable to give any definition of what those courses are?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Foundation level courses are those that are classified as mixed field. They focus on literacy, numeracy, life skills, employment skills, etc. I am advised that that is for a statistical purpose, and I will elaborate on that further when the member asks his next supplementary question.
Moana MackeyHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
It is doing so because, clearly, issues of adult literacy are major issues within New Zealand. Clearly, too, it is desirable to try to reconnect people with the formal education system to address those issues. Of course, that does not mean to say the Government should not be very conscious about value-for-money elements, which is why my predecessor started taking some action in these areas.
Hon Brian Donnelly Link to this
Can the Minister confirm that data on foundation courses for the year 2000 is unavailable because the system his Government inherited from the previous National Government was so poor that the data is of insufficient quality to provide reliable numbers?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
That is the case—that is the advice I have—which is why we are able to make comparisons only from 2001 onwards. Those comparisons are available.
Hon Tau HenareWhy, 6 years after the beginning of the Modern Apprenticeships programme and after $100 million of spending, does the Minister still not know how many apprentices actually drop out of those courses?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
What we do have are completion numbers. As I explained to the select committee, calculating completion rates is quite difficult when one has a developing scheme, because obviously the numbers gear up over time in terms of completion. The completion rate for the first year is almost 0 percent. Clearly, that tends to rise significantly from then on. We now have well over 2,000 completions.
Te Ururoa Flavell Link to this
Tēnā koe, Madam Speaker; tēnā tātou katoa. How many foundation courses with a specific Māori focus were cut over 2004-05, and what has been the impact on Māori participation in the regions?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I am afraid I do not have that number in front of me. It would probably be very, very difficult to extract that level of data from the system. I will try to do my best to get back to him, but I doubt the data is available in that form.
Can the Minister confirm that he has told the House today that the Government last year spent $120 million of the money that was meant to subsidise students in tertiary courses—those offered at universities and polytechnics—on literacy, numeracy, and life skills, and does he think it appropriate that universities should be teaching those sorts of courses?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
There is some role for universities to teach those courses. It is fair to say, however, that very little of that money has been spent by universities. The only really significant provider at university level in that area is the Auckland University of Technology.
How can the Minister avoid waste in these large programmes—such as $120 million for student component foundation skills and $100 million on Modern Apprenticeships schemes—when his own officials have told him that the data-recording system can show students are completing those courses when they were never enrolled in them and that many tertiary institutions are themselves dismayed at the low quality of data about these courses, and how can he exercise any accountability for this $200 million?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I think the problem the member highlights is not one that relates, particularly, to the Modern Apprenticeships scheme. I accept there have been some difficulties elsewhere. It is part of the reason I took—I think—some six or seven different papers through Cabinet committee today on changing the system we inherited from the previous Government.
When will the Minister answer the very simple question I put to him as a primary question, and have put to him a number of times in written questions, and that is to lay out in detail the types of courses and the institutions that were paid $120 million of student component—that is, tertiary student subsidy—for teaching foundation skills, and why will he not answer that question?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I am happy to table today data for 2001-04 in terms of foundation education courses. I would emphasise that these are self-identified by the institutions—
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
If the member cares to shut up for a minute and control his anger—
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I was about to say something nice about the member but I will forgo that opportunity given his interjection.