2. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) Link to this
to the Minister for Tertiary Education
Has he, as Minister for Tertiary Education, at any time raised concerns with any agency about the validity of audit reports produced about Te Wānanga o Aotearoa; if not, why not?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) Link to this
I raised concerns with the Minister of Education and the Office of the Auditor-General about the timing of these reports, soon after I became the Minister. I am advised that previous Ministers raised concerns about their validity. By the time I become the Minister, of course, one was moving on to issues of resolution of the wānanga.
Is the Minister aware that the Auditor-General has now raised doubts about the audit opinions signed off by himself on the annual financial statements of the wānanga for 2003?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I have seen media reports to that end and that Mr Brady said he had no excuse for signing off of flawed audits.
Hon Brian Donnelly Link to this
What would the Minister say about the efficacy of the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit if he were told that it had informed the Education and Science Committee on 20 October 2004 that it had no particular concerns about the financial affairs of Te Wānanga o Aotearoa, yet within 6 months that organisation was in serious financial difficulty?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
To some extent the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit was relying upon the audited reports. In hindsight it is clear that that advice was not good advice.
Can the Minister understand the problems it creates for Parliament when the Auditor-General has now admitted he probably should not have signed off the 2003 financial statements given that his own report later on, and tabled in this Parliament, found that there were unspecified contracts, disputes over the ownership of assets, and potentially illegal transactions in the wānanga, but Parliament’s own watchdog signed off the accounts as true and fair?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
Yes; of course I am not responsible for the Auditor-General. He is an officer of Parliament, not a Government employee. What I am responsible for is the actions that I took, against considerable criticism from members opposite, that led to the resignation of the chief executive of the wānanga.
Hon Brian Donnelly Link to this
Could it be that one of the reasons for the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit’s assessment of the financial affairs of the wānanga at that time was that the wānanga had established in 2003 an audit and risk committee that included two external members, one of whom was a certain Shane Jones?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
It did indeed set up such a committee. It is my recollection it was chaired by Mr John Storey, who, I think, is probably widely respected on all sides of this House. The committee made a number of recommendations. I am advised by Mr Jones that the wānanga consistently ignored the recommendations from the audit and risk committee and that was one of the reasons why Mr Jones resigned from that committee.
Te Ururoa Flavell Link to this
How has the Crown addressed the breaches of Te Tiriti o Waitangi identified by the Waitangi Tribunal, including the failure to ensure that a partnership agreement between the Crown and wānanga was concluded and that the Crown undermined its rangatiratanga—authority—and effectively took control of the institution?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I do not accept that last part. If we had effectively taken control the problems would not have arisen. With respect to partnership, it takes two to tango. In this case, we rather more engaged in dirty dancing, I think.
How did the Minister and his officials for 2 years overlook a serious conflict of interest for Deloitte’s as the auditor of the wānanga and the Crown adviser; a conflict so bad that the Auditor-General said yesterday he has effectively sacked Deloitte’s from the audit contract for the wānanga?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I would emphasise that the Auditor-General stated in his view that the appearance, at least, of a conflict of interest had not contributed to the failure to spot problems. I am not responsible for the issues around the audit, given, of course, that there was a separation between the Hamilton office doing the audit and Mr McNally from the Christchurch office of Deloitte’s.
Does the Minister accept he is responsible for the appointment of a Deloitte’s senior partner as the Crown adviser in the wānanga right through this period; that that adviser was in a conflict of interest with his own company, which was the auditor, and that has left Parliament in the position where the Auditor-General has had to own up to breaking his own rules and signing an audit opinion he should not have signed?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
That last statement is incorrect. It is clear: the Auditor-General stated to the select committee, on the basis of reports I have, that even if there were a conflict of interest, that was not the cause of the problems surrounding the audits. In the case of the first question, the answer is clearly no. I suggest the member remind himself when I became the Minister for Tertiary Education.
Why, now that the Government is running the wānanga, have the financial accounts for the year ended December 2004 not yet been finalised or signed off by the Auditor-General?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The Government is not running the wānanga. The council of the wānanga is running the wānanga, and it is moving to get a full council in place. When that full council is in place, some of the issues raised by my colleague Mr Flavell will be able to be discussed between the Government and the wānanga. The Auditor-General is responsible for that audit, and the Auditor-General is an Officer of Parliament, not an officer of mine.
Why did the Government appoint a Crown manager, called a Crown manager, who has control of the cheque book, if it was not the Crown’s intention to have significant control of the wānanga, and can he answer the question about why the accounts for the 2004 year have still not been signed off, 15 months after the end of the financial year?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The purpose of a Crown manager is to address the problems that led to the various things that the member is talking about. I am satisfied that the wānanga’s financial management is now considerably better than it was in 2003, 2004, and 2005. The Auditor-General yesterday declined to give the member the reasons for this—I do not know what they are.