11. Dr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader—Māori Party) Link to this
to the Minister in Charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations
What are the implications for Ngāi Tahu and Tainui of their ratchet clause relativity mechanism being expressed in 1994 dollar terms?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) Link to this
The expression of the clause in 1994 dollar terms provides the basis for establishing the level of Crown expenditure on the settlement of historical Treaty claims at which the relativity clauses will be triggered. It means that adding up the nominal or current dollar figures of new settlements until they reach $1 billion cannot be used to calculate when the mechanism is triggered.
So what would the $700 million allocated towards Treaty settlements to date be converted to when expressed in the 1994 dollar terms?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I do not have that number in front of me. One would, of course, have to start off with each successive settlement being deflated by the CPI to that point and then adding up the total to arrive at the 1994 dollar terms.
Was the process of converting settlements back to the 1994 dollar terms explained to iwi when negotiating settlements; if not, why not?
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
The settlements with both Ngāi Tahu and Waikato-Tainui are absolutely explicit in that fashion. I do not believe that any group that subsequently engaged in negotiation with the Crown under either the previous or the current Government would have been unaware of those clauses. They were completely within the public arena, and the attempt now by some to be arguing that all historic settlements already achieved should now be reopened rests upon no basis in fact, at all.
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
I do not believe the people who have been negotiating on behalf of iwi, who often include quite highly paid lawyers, have been ignorant of the basis of Treaty settlements since the mid-1990s and the inclusion of the ratchet clause. Indeed, there are still people who believe there is a thing called a billion-dollar fiscal cap, which was actually abolished in the mid-1990s. The billion dollar figure is now only relevant as the point at which, in 1994 dollars, the ratchet clauses with Tainui and with Ngāi Tahu are triggered. That can be expected to occur probably within the next 2 or 3 years given the current pace of settlements.
I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am aware that what Dr Cullen said was quite correct, but my last question was really referring to the settlements relating back to the 1994 dollar terms. I asked whether the other iwi knew about that, and that question was not answered.
Madam SPEAKERHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN Link to this
My view, very strongly, would be that if any iwi, for some extraordinary reason, were not aware, their complaint would be with the lawyers who represented them, and I suggest they approach the Law Society on that behalf and lay complaints.