9. CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) Link to this
to the Minister of Women's Affairs
Is she concerned that the quarterly employment survey released yesterday shows that the average wage gap between men and women has grown to 12.8 percent?
Hon PANSY WONG (Minister of Women’s Affairs) Link to this
I have made the gender pay gap one of the three priorities for the Ministry of Women’s Affairs, and the ministry has a Budget increase of $2 million to tackle the issue.
Mr SPEAKERBefore I go on to invite further supplementary questions, the primary question—and it was a primary question—asked whether the Minister was concerned. I guess that in her answer she said that she had made that a priority for her department.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
Does the Minister want the good news or the bad news? The good news is that very recent figures show—
Having just given some thought to whether I could assist the member to get an answer to her primary question, I cannot allow that kind of supplementary question. It bears no resemblance to the Standing Orders whatsoever, and I invite the member to rethink her supplementary question.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
Does the Minister agree that the quarterly employment survey, which surveys 18,000 businesses to measure changes in average hourly and weekly earnings, is relevant to measuring the gender pay gap in New Zealand?
It might be relevant to the measuring of the gender pay gap, because the gender pay gap can be measured according to the survey mentioned by the member, but it can also be measured by median weekly earnings and median hourly earnings. Therefore, adoption of a consistent measurement base is very important. Since 2004 the Ministry of Women’s Affairs has adopted the measurement of comparing the median hourly earnings of men and women provided by the annual New Zealand Income Survey. That measure gives us less distortion, because it excludes the value of benefits, and is less influenced by the number of hours than weekly earnings are.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
Why does the ministry not take into account multiple surveys that measure the gap, in order to have the fullest and most up-to-date picture of the problem?
I thank the member for wanting to know what is fair, and wanting not to have confused messages. Since 2004 the Ministry of Women’s Affairs has adopted as its measure the median hourly differences supplied by the New Zealand Income Survey. The latest figure available is for the period up to June 2009, when the gap decreased to 11.3 percent from 12 percent. It had been static since 2001.
Dr Jackie BlueHow many ways can the pay gap be measured, and which one has been consistently used by the Ministry of Women’s Affairs?
Because there is so much confusion out there, I welcome the member giving me an opportunity to once again say that there are at least half a dozen ways of measuring the gap. It is important for us to look for consistency of comparison by using the measure used by the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. It has selected the difference between the median hourly earnings supplied by the annual New Zealand Income Survey, which shows the gap has reduced to 11.3 percent. That is the good news for New Zealand women.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
How can she justify dismissing the latest figures and relying on a measure that has not been updated in over a year?
By no means do I dismiss any figure, but it is important to measure the gap by a standardised, consistent trend, because of the many variables. The Ministry of Women’s Affairs has adopted that measurement since 2004. If I wanted to manufacture good news I could use the figures for full-time median hour earnings, which shows a wage gap of 7.8 percent, but the National Government is transparent and credible.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
What new steps has her Government taken specifically to reduce the gender pay gap in the last 12 months?
It has taken many steps, and I will try to be concise because I know that Mr Speaker wants concise answers. Some of the measures are promoting women into more choices in the trade sector; the ministry leading the work to establish the Women in Trades Network in Auckland and Wellington; and investigating the graduate income differential. We want to understand why, 1 year after graduation, a pay gap of 6 to 8 percent has developed. We are very, very fortunate to have many good accounting practices that can demonstrate that flexible work practices are good for retaining women and increase productivity. Mr Speaker, the good work keeps rolling out, but I respect your request to be concise.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
Can the Minister explain—I am sure she can—why she is commissioning research into the problem if she has no intention of making changes based on the findings, which show that the gender pay gap continues to increase?
I thought I had just quoted that the consistent pay gap measurement taken by the Ministry of Women’s Affairs has gone from 12.3 percent to 11.3 percent. I thought that was a reduction. I am an accountant; I should know.
Sue MoroneyIs she concerned that the gender pay gap got as low as 11.94 percent in March 2009 as a result of Labour’s planned approach, but since she stopped the pay equity investigation for social workers and school support staff, and since she closed down the pay and employment equity unit, the gap has widened to 12.81 percent?
My worry is that the member has not been listening to all the previous answers. I advise her to discuss the issue with the previous Labour Minister of Women’s Affairs, the Hon Ruth Dyson, and also Lianne Dalziel and Steve Chadwick. They all endorsed the pay gap measure based on the hourly median earnings supplied by the New Zealand Income Survey. The gap has closed.
Has she taken instruction from the Prime Minister on how to fudge the figures when it comes to pay gaps?
I take offence at the words “fudging the figure”. I do not believe that is worthy of a supplementary question in the Parliament, surely.
I take it the Minister is saying that—[ Interruption] I have already ruled out two Opposition questions today, so I invite the member to rephrase her question. The member should not make outlandish allegations in asking a question. I invite her to reword her question.
Has she taken instruction from the Prime Minister on how to massage the figures when it comes to describing pay gaps?
No. Unlike the Labour Party, whose leader cannot even get his members to follow instructions to apologise to their leader, this side of the House—
I ask members to show a little courtesy to Catherine Delahunty, who is sitting down the back of the House.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
We know they want to hear it. If the gender pay gap keeps getting wider, will she concede that her Government’s approach is not working and work with the Green Party to develop legislation to address this big problem?
It is very hard to cooperate with the Green Party when it believes in legislating for everything. I have every confidence in New Zealand women and employers, and people can see that good work practices will close those gaps.
Catherine Delahunty Link to this
I seek leave to table two tables from the quarterly employment survey released yesterday, showing—